[s]Thalia wrote on 01:06, 31st Jan 2005:
I think that's quite similar to the Thomson argument - as you could say that it follows from the fact that if a woman has a right to say no and disconnect herself from the violinist then anyone who tries to force her to stay connected is inherently wrong.
*scrolls up and re-reads*
I do apologise - I think I totally skipped your post when reading the thread - the arguments are essentially exactly the same.
[hr]
http://www.greebo.org.uk - Loadsa drunken photos and suchlikes.
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"Abortion = Deliberate Killing = Murder" ?
...and Bibically
by The Truth on Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:30 am
Right, so here goes the discussion of abortion according to the Holy Scriptures:
Despite, what conseratives may say, it is difficult to derive a prohibition of abortion in either the Jewish or Christian scriptures. Of course there are always a few passages that they like to sling around like they were God's Billboard ad against abortion.
The most common of these is the one found in the first chapter of Jeramiah, of which Paul has so nicely quoted for us above. Now, if you read the whole passage, you would realize that neither abortion, nor sanctity of fetal life, nor biology, nor anything remotely of the sort is being discussed: Instead Jeramiah is merely asserting his authority as a prophet. All it is is a dramatic and poetic way of saying that God has always intended him to be a prophet.
Now the scripture that relates the closest to abortion is found in the 21st chapter of Exodus, and is part of the law given to the Isrealites. Here the penalty of MURDER is death. However if a woman is struck, and caused to have a miscarriage, the penalty is naught but a fine to be paided to her husband. Murder was not a catagory that applied to fetuses: teh Law of Israel clearly regarded fetuses as something less then wholly human beings.
[hr]
May Christ give you the grace to pick up your scattered wits.
-St. Jerome
Despite, what conseratives may say, it is difficult to derive a prohibition of abortion in either the Jewish or Christian scriptures. Of course there are always a few passages that they like to sling around like they were God's Billboard ad against abortion.
The most common of these is the one found in the first chapter of Jeramiah, of which Paul has so nicely quoted for us above. Now, if you read the whole passage, you would realize that neither abortion, nor sanctity of fetal life, nor biology, nor anything remotely of the sort is being discussed: Instead Jeramiah is merely asserting his authority as a prophet. All it is is a dramatic and poetic way of saying that God has always intended him to be a prophet.
Now the scripture that relates the closest to abortion is found in the 21st chapter of Exodus, and is part of the law given to the Isrealites. Here the penalty of MURDER is death. However if a woman is struck, and caused to have a miscarriage, the penalty is naught but a fine to be paided to her husband. Murder was not a catagory that applied to fetuses: teh Law of Israel clearly regarded fetuses as something less then wholly human beings.
[hr]
May Christ give you the grace to pick up your scattered wits.
-St. Jerome
It is only in winter that we know the cyprus and the pine to be evergreens.
-
The Truth
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Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:24 am
[s]The Truth wrote on 01:30, 31st Jan 2005:
Right, so here goes the discussion of abortion according to the Holy Scriptures:
...
Now the scripture that relates the closest to abortion is found in the 21st chapter of Exodus, and is part of the law given to the Isrealites. Here the penalty of MURDER is death. However if a woman is struck, and caused to have a miscarriage, the penalty is naught but a fine to be paided to her husband. Murder was not a catagory that applied to fetuses: teh Law of Israel clearly regarded fetuses as something less then wholly human beings.
Let's have a look at the passage Exodus 21:
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." - Exodus 21:22-25
A more literal translation of the phrase "so that her fruit depart" from the Hebrew is: "so that her children go forth."
We have here the recognition that the woman is pregnant with one or more children. No reference to a foetus!
Now if no other damage is done, the guilty party shall pay damages "as the woman's husband will lay upon him". This would depend on the circumstances and the additional costs involved.
However, "if any mischief follow", to the mother or child(ren), the penalty is plain - right down to "life for life"!
"The Truth" has plainly misrepresnted the passage.
Abortion is a death sentence for the unborn child, but it is not without risk to the mother! A survey in Japan listed the following complaints from women who had had an abortion:
[nl]
[li]9% experienced sterility
[li]14% reported subsequent habitual spontaneous miscarriage
[li]17% complained of menstrual irregularities
[li]20-30% reported abdominal pain, dizziness, headaches, etc.
[li]There was a 400% increase in ectopic (tubal) pregnancies
[/nl]
Then there is the psychological damage: British Victims of Abortion (Helpline: Tel: 0845 603 8501. For other Help-lines, see http://www.spucscotland.org/contact/cri ... plines.htm ) report that "At least 10% of women who have an abortion will suffer PAT [Post Abortion Trauma] at some point between having their abortion and the end of their lives."
Abortion is a SERIOUS matter.
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
Right, so here goes the discussion of abortion according to the Holy Scriptures:
...
Now the scripture that relates the closest to abortion is found in the 21st chapter of Exodus, and is part of the law given to the Isrealites. Here the penalty of MURDER is death. However if a woman is struck, and caused to have a miscarriage, the penalty is naught but a fine to be paided to her husband. Murder was not a catagory that applied to fetuses: teh Law of Israel clearly regarded fetuses as something less then wholly human beings.
Let's have a look at the passage Exodus 21:
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." - Exodus 21:22-25
A more literal translation of the phrase "so that her fruit depart" from the Hebrew is: "so that her children go forth."
We have here the recognition that the woman is pregnant with one or more children. No reference to a foetus!
Now if no other damage is done, the guilty party shall pay damages "as the woman's husband will lay upon him". This would depend on the circumstances and the additional costs involved.
However, "if any mischief follow", to the mother or child(ren), the penalty is plain - right down to "life for life"!
"The Truth" has plainly misrepresnted the passage.
Abortion is a death sentence for the unborn child, but it is not without risk to the mother! A survey in Japan listed the following complaints from women who had had an abortion:
[nl]
[li]9% experienced sterility
[li]14% reported subsequent habitual spontaneous miscarriage
[li]17% complained of menstrual irregularities
[li]20-30% reported abdominal pain, dizziness, headaches, etc.
[li]There was a 400% increase in ectopic (tubal) pregnancies
[/nl]
Then there is the psychological damage: British Victims of Abortion (Helpline: Tel: 0845 603 8501. For other Help-lines, see http://www.spucscotland.org/contact/cri ... plines.htm ) report that "At least 10% of women who have an abortion will suffer PAT [Post Abortion Trauma] at some point between having their abortion and the end of their lives."
Abortion is a SERIOUS matter.
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
-
Paul
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- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:35 am
Just found this link on Post Abortion Trauma:
http://www.spuc.org.uk/documents/leafle ... bortio.pdf
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
http://www.spuc.org.uk/documents/leafle ... bortio.pdf
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
-
Paul
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by exnihilo on Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:25 pm
The key to that passage is the mischief following. Following to whom? If the "fruit" or unborn child/foetus has been miscarried already no further mischief can follow to it. Therefore, the only person to whom mischief could follow (sickness, sterility, death) is the mother and the penalty for the person who caused it should be meted accordingly.
-
exnihilo
- Posts: 4999
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:20 pm
[s]exnihilo wrote on 13:25, 31st Jan 2005:
The key to that passage is the mischief following. Following to whom? If the "fruit" or unborn child/foetus has been miscarried already no further mischief can follow to it. Therefore, the only person to whom mischief could follow (sickness, sterility, death) is the mother and the penalty for the person who caused it should be meted accordingly.
Wrong!!!
There is no evidence to suggest that child is still-born.
It is quite possible for a child to be born prematurely in such circumstances and survive. Premature babies have survived were their mothers have died!
And even if the child survived for only a few minutes, and then died, mischief would still have occurred to the child, for it would have lived and breathed.
The mischief plainly refers to mother AND child.
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
The key to that passage is the mischief following. Following to whom? If the "fruit" or unborn child/foetus has been miscarried already no further mischief can follow to it. Therefore, the only person to whom mischief could follow (sickness, sterility, death) is the mother and the penalty for the person who caused it should be meted accordingly.
Wrong!!!
There is no evidence to suggest that child is still-born.
It is quite possible for a child to be born prematurely in such circumstances and survive. Premature babies have survived were their mothers have died!
And even if the child survived for only a few minutes, and then died, mischief would still have occurred to the child, for it would have lived and breathed.
The mischief plainly refers to mother AND child.
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
-
Paul
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Mr Comedy on Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:31 pm
Although I think that there is a demonstrable harm with abortion, and that where possible, other avenues should be explored, it has to be available freely and widely.
Although we can discuss the harm principle of abortion all day, and ponder if it is a moral choice or not, I think that we have to conceed that it is better that it is available rather than having people resort to dangerous and unsafe backstreet abortions instead.
Although we can discuss the harm principle of abortion all day, and ponder if it is a moral choice or not, I think that we have to conceed that it is better that it is available rather than having people resort to dangerous and unsafe backstreet abortions instead.
"I am in no way interested in immortality, but only in the taste of tea. " -Lu Tung
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Mr Comedy
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Re:
by The Truth on Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:46 pm
[s]Paul wrote on 11:24, 31st Jan 2005:
Let's have a look at the passage Exodus 21:
" If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit
depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." - Exodus 21:22-25
A more literal translation of the phrase "so that her fruit depart" from the Hebrew is: "so that her children go forth."
We have here the recognition that the woman is pregnant with one or more children. No reference to a foetus!
Now if no other damage is done, the guilty party shall pay damages "as the woman's husband will lay upon him". This would depend on the circumstances and the additional costs involved.
However, "if any mischief follow", to the mother or child(ren), the penalty is plain - right down to "life for life"!
"The Truth" has plainly misrepresnted the passage.
Okay, so we already know that you have a knack for misreading the bible, you have no need to prove it.
I will just assume that you took that quote from the King James Version, since that would be typical of people like you. Fair enough.
Once again, you must use proper context while quoting from the bible. What your basicall saying is that the bible reads thus: "If men strive, and hurt a pregnant woman, so that her children go forth, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished" Which quite obviously makes no sense. As is most often the case in english, the senctence refers directly to the one previous to it. So "so that her fruit depart from her" refers to "and hurt a woman with child", so it obviously refers to the unborn child, or as we like to say nowdays the "fetus". The "mischief that follows" refers to damage other then relating to the miscarriage, as that has already been adressed.
*note*
A more clear translation can be found in the New American Bible, which states "when men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman's husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges. But if injury ensues, you shall give life for life, eye for eye...." Which is quite clear, and in English that doesn't need to be translated.
Choose your poison: all versions of the bible WHEN PROPERLY READ agree with my orginal post.
*edited for clarity*
[hr]
May Christ give you the grace to pick up your scattered wits.
-St. Jerome
Let's have a look at the passage Exodus 21:
" If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit
depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." - Exodus 21:22-25
A more literal translation of the phrase "so that her fruit depart" from the Hebrew is: "so that her children go forth."
We have here the recognition that the woman is pregnant with one or more children. No reference to a foetus!
Now if no other damage is done, the guilty party shall pay damages "as the woman's husband will lay upon him". This would depend on the circumstances and the additional costs involved.
However, "if any mischief follow", to the mother or child(ren), the penalty is plain - right down to "life for life"!
"The Truth" has plainly misrepresnted the passage.
Okay, so we already know that you have a knack for misreading the bible, you have no need to prove it.
I will just assume that you took that quote from the King James Version, since that would be typical of people like you. Fair enough.
Once again, you must use proper context while quoting from the bible. What your basicall saying is that the bible reads thus: "If men strive, and hurt a pregnant woman, so that her children go forth, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished" Which quite obviously makes no sense. As is most often the case in english, the senctence refers directly to the one previous to it. So "so that her fruit depart from her" refers to "and hurt a woman with child", so it obviously refers to the unborn child, or as we like to say nowdays the "fetus". The "mischief that follows" refers to damage other then relating to the miscarriage, as that has already been adressed.
*note*
A more clear translation can be found in the New American Bible, which states "when men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman's husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges. But if injury ensues, you shall give life for life, eye for eye...." Which is quite clear, and in English that doesn't need to be translated.
Choose your poison: all versions of the bible WHEN PROPERLY READ agree with my orginal post.
*edited for clarity*
[hr]
May Christ give you the grace to pick up your scattered wits.
-St. Jerome
It is only in winter that we know the cyprus and the pine to be evergreens.
-
The Truth
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:00 pm
Re:
by Rilla on Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:58 pm
This is all making me so mad!
When a woman/girl finds herself pregnant unexpectadly, what does she turn to???
The bible??
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All of these arguments are entirely academic and have absolutely NOTHING to do with what a real life situation is like.
It's the kind of pedantic arguments found in this thread that add to the shame and confusion women find themselves in.
Notice I say women - I'm sure males reading this will argue (as it has been argued before) that they should have a right to an opinion.
Frankly, it's not their body, therefore, any argument they present will only be an abstract/academic one and nothing to do with the fear/shock/loneliness/confusion a woman finds herself in.
[hr]
Blood is a cleansing and sanctifying thing, and the nation that regards it as the final horror has lost its manhood... there are many things more horrible than bloodshed, and slavery is one of them!
When a woman/girl finds herself pregnant unexpectadly, what does she turn to???
The bible??
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All of these arguments are entirely academic and have absolutely NOTHING to do with what a real life situation is like.
It's the kind of pedantic arguments found in this thread that add to the shame and confusion women find themselves in.
Notice I say women - I'm sure males reading this will argue (as it has been argued before) that they should have a right to an opinion.
Frankly, it's not their body, therefore, any argument they present will only be an abstract/academic one and nothing to do with the fear/shock/loneliness/confusion a woman finds herself in.
[hr]
Blood is a cleansing and sanctifying thing, and the nation that regards it as the final horror has lost its manhood... there are many things more horrible than bloodshed, and slavery is one of them!
Be good to yourself because nobody else has the power to make you happy.
-
Rilla
- Posts: 941
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:14 am
Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:00 pm
[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 14:31, 31st Jan 2005:
Although I think that there is a demonstrable harm with abortion, and that where possible, other avenues should be explored, it has to be available freely and widely.
Although we can discuss the harm principle of abortion all day, and ponder if it is a moral choice or not, I think that we have to conceed that it is better that it is available rather than having people resort to dangerous and unsafe backstreet abortions instead.
Not at all!
Have back-street abortions cost the lives of many millions of babies and several of their mothers over any 40 year period! What utter nonsense!
The reality however is that whilst in 1967 approximately only 14,600 back street abortions were performed with 32 maternal deaths, in 1995 163,000 abortions were performed. That is 150,000 extra abortions a year. [See Matters of Life and Death by John Wyatt.]
Legalising abortion has made for abortion on demand by giving the impression that it is a relatively harmless, straight-forward procedure.
God abhors the shedding of innocent blood:
"And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance." - Psalm 106:38-40
"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, ..." - Proverbs 6:16-17
It is never right to legalise killing the innocent on the supposition that "It is better than ..."
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
Although I think that there is a demonstrable harm with abortion, and that where possible, other avenues should be explored, it has to be available freely and widely.
Although we can discuss the harm principle of abortion all day, and ponder if it is a moral choice or not, I think that we have to conceed that it is better that it is available rather than having people resort to dangerous and unsafe backstreet abortions instead.
Not at all!
Have back-street abortions cost the lives of many millions of babies and several of their mothers over any 40 year period! What utter nonsense!
The reality however is that whilst in 1967 approximately only 14,600 back street abortions were performed with 32 maternal deaths, in 1995 163,000 abortions were performed. That is 150,000 extra abortions a year. [See Matters of Life and Death by John Wyatt.]
Legalising abortion has made for abortion on demand by giving the impression that it is a relatively harmless, straight-forward procedure.
God abhors the shedding of innocent blood:
"And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance." - Psalm 106:38-40
"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, ..." - Proverbs 6:16-17
It is never right to legalise killing the innocent on the supposition that "It is better than ..."
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
-
Paul
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:08 pm
[s]Rilla wrote on 14:58, 31st Jan 2005:
This is all making me so mad!
When a woman/girl finds herself pregnant unexpectadly, what does she turn to???
I have experience of women who have found themselves "unexpectedly pregnant" as you put and have had abortions.
Hence, the links I have provided on this thread where help can be found.
The numbers listed on the SPUC web-page even include one for financial assistance should the woman decide to continue with the pregnancy.
But them, single women would not find themselves "unexpectedly pregnant" if they did not involve themselves in the sin of fornication!
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." - II Corinthians 6:9-11
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
This is all making me so mad!
When a woman/girl finds herself pregnant unexpectadly, what does she turn to???
I have experience of women who have found themselves "unexpectedly pregnant" as you put and have had abortions.
Hence, the links I have provided on this thread where help can be found.
The numbers listed on the SPUC web-page even include one for financial assistance should the woman decide to continue with the pregnancy.
But them, single women would not find themselves "unexpectedly pregnant" if they did not involve themselves in the sin of fornication!
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." - II Corinthians 6:9-11
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
-
Paul
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:13 pm
[s]Rilla wrote on 14:58, 31st Jan 2005:
...
Frankly, it's not their body, ...
And frankly, neither is the child's body, the woman's!
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
...
Frankly, it's not their body, ...
And frankly, neither is the child's body, the woman's!
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
-
Paul
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Mr Comedy on Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:37 pm
[s]Paul wrote on 15:00, 31st Jan 2005:
Not at all!
Have back-street abortions cost the lives of many millions of babies and several of their mothers over any 40 year period! What utter nonsense!
If people like youself get their way, then there will be a dramatic increase in backstreet abortions, because they will no longer be available through any other means. This endangers the life of the mother, and is less safe. Abortion happens - face up to that. It is better that there is a safe, hygenic state-sanctioned and state-controlled way of that being facilitated.
Legalising abortion has made for abortion on demand by giving the impression that it is a relatively harmless, straight-forward procedure.
Totally wrong. Before abortion is offered, counselling is offered, and this is discussed at great length. Abortion causes post-natal trauma in many women, lowers the possibility of pregancy in later life, and increases the possibility of birth defects. It is not an easy choice, and that is not what is on offer.
God abhors the shedding of innocent blood:
"And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance." - Psalm 106:38-40
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 1 Corinthians 10:23 (KJV).
So actually, the Lord offers a choice, and this is one that you will not conceed.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8 v1-2, KJV).
It is never right to legalise killing the innocent on the supposition that "It is better than ..."
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you brother. Under the law there is freedom for people to exercise their individual rights and actions. Although the Bible does suggest that abortion is not always the best solution, it doesn't legislate against it.
I am somewhat surprised that no-one has quoted Psalm 139v13 "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb". Yes, babies are special, and yes, I would agree that there is a need for careful consideration. However, your view on this is based on a legalistic perspective, and fails to take into account the situation that someone is in, or the real hurt that can exist.
Yes, I am a Christian, but I prefer to deal with these issues in context, rather than taking an extreme fundamentalist viewpoint. I have spoken to mothers who have had abortions, and been wracked with guilt, as well as rape victims and people who are unable to bring up a child.
Here is one more verse for you to consider:
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:35 (KJV)
Not at all!
Have back-street abortions cost the lives of many millions of babies and several of their mothers over any 40 year period! What utter nonsense!
If people like youself get their way, then there will be a dramatic increase in backstreet abortions, because they will no longer be available through any other means. This endangers the life of the mother, and is less safe. Abortion happens - face up to that. It is better that there is a safe, hygenic state-sanctioned and state-controlled way of that being facilitated.
Legalising abortion has made for abortion on demand by giving the impression that it is a relatively harmless, straight-forward procedure.
Totally wrong. Before abortion is offered, counselling is offered, and this is discussed at great length. Abortion causes post-natal trauma in many women, lowers the possibility of pregancy in later life, and increases the possibility of birth defects. It is not an easy choice, and that is not what is on offer.
God abhors the shedding of innocent blood:
"And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance." - Psalm 106:38-40
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 1 Corinthians 10:23 (KJV).
So actually, the Lord offers a choice, and this is one that you will not conceed.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8 v1-2, KJV).
It is never right to legalise killing the innocent on the supposition that "It is better than ..."
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you brother. Under the law there is freedom for people to exercise their individual rights and actions. Although the Bible does suggest that abortion is not always the best solution, it doesn't legislate against it.
I am somewhat surprised that no-one has quoted Psalm 139v13 "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb". Yes, babies are special, and yes, I would agree that there is a need for careful consideration. However, your view on this is based on a legalistic perspective, and fails to take into account the situation that someone is in, or the real hurt that can exist.
Yes, I am a Christian, but I prefer to deal with these issues in context, rather than taking an extreme fundamentalist viewpoint. I have spoken to mothers who have had abortions, and been wracked with guilt, as well as rape victims and people who are unable to bring up a child.
Here is one more verse for you to consider:
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:35 (KJV)
"I am in no way interested in immortality, but only in the taste of tea. " -Lu Tung
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Mr Comedy
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Re:
by rae on Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:20 pm
Ooo, and one more! "let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone" ,etc etc.
I have to say, I am with Rilla here. If there were a simple answer to "abortion=good/bad" someone would have come up with it - and I DON'T mean a bunch of bible thumpers who have never been in a situation where they've had to consider the prospect of unexpectedly becoming a mother. Sure it's a problem that wouldn't exist if no one had sex without expecting a baby out of it. But that is simply not realistic in our society, nor should it be.
And finally, what is wrong with the KJV? The fact that it was translated by poets and therefore slightly more eloquent than your religion for dummies American bible which probably comes complete with drawings and study notes? I'd love to hear this!
I have to say, I am with Rilla here. If there were a simple answer to "abortion=good/bad" someone would have come up with it - and I DON'T mean a bunch of bible thumpers who have never been in a situation where they've had to consider the prospect of unexpectedly becoming a mother. Sure it's a problem that wouldn't exist if no one had sex without expecting a baby out of it. But that is simply not realistic in our society, nor should it be.
And finally, what is wrong with the KJV? The fact that it was translated by poets and therefore slightly more eloquent than your religion for dummies American bible which probably comes complete with drawings and study notes? I'd love to hear this!
In America they think 100 years is old and in Britain they think 100 miles is far.
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rae
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by exnihilo on Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:43 pm
[s]Paul wrote on 14:20, 31st Jan 2005:
Wrong!!!
No. In disagreement with you, the two are not the same thing.
[s]rae wrote on 19:20, 31st Jan 2005:
And finally, what is wrong with the KJV? The fact that it was translated by poets and therefore slightly more eloquent than your religion for dummies American bible which probably comes complete with drawings and study notes? I'd love to hear this!
There's nothing wrong with it per se, the translation does read far better. Is it, however, an accurate translation? Or is it riddled with the baggage of the age in which it was translated? no translation will ever be perfect, but there's certainly room for updating and reexamining. Surely?
Wrong!!!
No. In disagreement with you, the two are not the same thing.
[s]rae wrote on 19:20, 31st Jan 2005:
And finally, what is wrong with the KJV? The fact that it was translated by poets and therefore slightly more eloquent than your religion for dummies American bible which probably comes complete with drawings and study notes? I'd love to hear this!
There's nothing wrong with it per se, the translation does read far better. Is it, however, an accurate translation? Or is it riddled with the baggage of the age in which it was translated? no translation will ever be perfect, but there's certainly room for updating and reexamining. Surely?
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exnihilo
- Posts: 4999
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by raheli on Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:25 pm
The suggestion that any woman should be forced to carry the child of rape is obscene. It is an affront to the deepest values of our species and our society. When a man and a woman mate, what is happening from a biological perspective? It's a question of contributions and benefits. The man is contributing very little to the physical pregnancy; sperm is NOT ins short supply and can be obtained easily. He is benefiting by the continuation of his line. For a man, who cannot bear children of his own, he must persuade a woman that he is worth investing the time, energy, and substantial risk of pregnancy and childrearing.
What is the woman contributiong? As I said, time, energy, risk; she is making a big investment. What is she gaining? Her own reproductive sucess, but that is practically certian because of her gender. She's gaining good genes for her children; this is why women like their men strong and healthy. This is the right to a CHOICE of her sexual partner. Rape denies her this choice. Rape forces her to make the huge investment of a child without any voice at all in the matter. Rape also denies her the other thing she should expect from the father of her children; support for herself and her children. Rape is WRONG at the deepest level of our species; it is truly inhuman. To force a woman to carry the child of rape is to reward her attacker and victimise her further, in a way that extends throughout her life.
From another perspective, if we say that a foetus has the right to life even if it is the product of rape, where does this leave child molestors? I read of a case in Ireland where a twelve year old was raped and became pregnant. The courts tried to deny her an abortion. Can the potential life of something that doesn't even have organs yet be in any way equated to the acute suffering of a little girl?
Of course not, and any legislation that might lead to such a situation is wrong.
I realise most people already agree with me on this one, but I've thought a lot about this and it seemed important to drive home the fact that this is not any kind of gray area.
What is the woman contributiong? As I said, time, energy, risk; she is making a big investment. What is she gaining? Her own reproductive sucess, but that is practically certian because of her gender. She's gaining good genes for her children; this is why women like their men strong and healthy. This is the right to a CHOICE of her sexual partner. Rape denies her this choice. Rape forces her to make the huge investment of a child without any voice at all in the matter. Rape also denies her the other thing she should expect from the father of her children; support for herself and her children. Rape is WRONG at the deepest level of our species; it is truly inhuman. To force a woman to carry the child of rape is to reward her attacker and victimise her further, in a way that extends throughout her life.
From another perspective, if we say that a foetus has the right to life even if it is the product of rape, where does this leave child molestors? I read of a case in Ireland where a twelve year old was raped and became pregnant. The courts tried to deny her an abortion. Can the potential life of something that doesn't even have organs yet be in any way equated to the acute suffering of a little girl?
Of course not, and any legislation that might lead to such a situation is wrong.
I realise most people already agree with me on this one, but I've thought a lot about this and it seemed important to drive home the fact that this is not any kind of gray area.
Intelligence is good. I'm not very intelligent myself, but I think it's a nice idea.
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raheli
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:27 am
Re:
by Rilla on Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:51 pm
Thankyou rae and raheli for some sensible posts without resorting to 2000+ year old rhetoric to make your point.
I am ignoring all references to the bible, as it doesn't have any place in my (and most 20something year old females) life.
Firstly, the reason for more abortions taking place today than 1967 is quite simple - there is a bigger population - hence more births, marriages, deaths, etc - more abortions also.
AS for the comment about fornication - I'm going to ignore that too. If i did comment, it would probably be a direct insult to Paul and I am trying to keep this post calm and relevant.
Just let me say that calling people sinners is not going to help the situation.
I agree absolutely raheli that in the case of a child (I see anyone as under aged 16 as a child) being raped, I would not hesitate them having an abortion.
However, it is NOT just single/unmarried/raped women who have abortions. There have been several publicised cases of brave, educated, rich, supported women becoming pregnant due to some kind of failure in contraceptives. The child/foetus will be born immeasurable disabled - unable to feel anything but pain. Whether rightly or wrongly, the mother has an abortion.
Is this right or wrong? Who are we to judge?
Is it going to be any of us making that decision? Hopefully not.
As raheli mentioned, there has been 2 very high profile cases in Ireland - the case of Ms. C and Ms. X.
Ms X was raped by her friends father at age 16. She was brought (with her parents support) to England for an abortion. The Irish state brought an injunction against her travelling for an abortion - there was a huge court case, and in the end, the law was changed to allow people to travel (mostly to England) for an abortion.
The case of Ms C occured sevarl years later (late 1990s as far as I remember) - this time a 12 year old was raped, and went to travel. Again, there were court cases held, - it ended up with a referendum to clarify the law.
It tried to make any woman having an abortion a criminal in Ireland in the eyes of the courts - happily, this referendum was not carried.
As much as I want to be pro-life, I realise that, as people have said, this is NOT a black/white issue.
In Ireland, it is incredibly hypocritical. We have no abortion - people just travel abroad to have them, adding to the stress and pain and expense these women have to go through.
It is incredibly naive to think that by making it illegal it will magically go away.
Obviously, adoption and other alternatives are to be preferred to an abortion. But reality is not as easy as that.
Most girls I know, no matter HOW careful with condoms, the pill, have a moments panic every month if their period is even a day late.
This is not something that just happens to uneducated or careless people.
This is an issue that could (or possibly already has) effect your sister/mother/best friend.
It is not a problem that afew bible quotes can solve.
I am ignoring all references to the bible, as it doesn't have any place in my (and most 20something year old females) life.
Firstly, the reason for more abortions taking place today than 1967 is quite simple - there is a bigger population - hence more births, marriages, deaths, etc - more abortions also.
AS for the comment about fornication - I'm going to ignore that too. If i did comment, it would probably be a direct insult to Paul and I am trying to keep this post calm and relevant.
Just let me say that calling people sinners is not going to help the situation.
I agree absolutely raheli that in the case of a child (I see anyone as under aged 16 as a child) being raped, I would not hesitate them having an abortion.
However, it is NOT just single/unmarried/raped women who have abortions. There have been several publicised cases of brave, educated, rich, supported women becoming pregnant due to some kind of failure in contraceptives. The child/foetus will be born immeasurable disabled - unable to feel anything but pain. Whether rightly or wrongly, the mother has an abortion.
Is this right or wrong? Who are we to judge?
Is it going to be any of us making that decision? Hopefully not.
As raheli mentioned, there has been 2 very high profile cases in Ireland - the case of Ms. C and Ms. X.
Ms X was raped by her friends father at age 16. She was brought (with her parents support) to England for an abortion. The Irish state brought an injunction against her travelling for an abortion - there was a huge court case, and in the end, the law was changed to allow people to travel (mostly to England) for an abortion.
The case of Ms C occured sevarl years later (late 1990s as far as I remember) - this time a 12 year old was raped, and went to travel. Again, there were court cases held, - it ended up with a referendum to clarify the law.
It tried to make any woman having an abortion a criminal in Ireland in the eyes of the courts - happily, this referendum was not carried.
As much as I want to be pro-life, I realise that, as people have said, this is NOT a black/white issue.
In Ireland, it is incredibly hypocritical. We have no abortion - people just travel abroad to have them, adding to the stress and pain and expense these women have to go through.
It is incredibly naive to think that by making it illegal it will magically go away.
Obviously, adoption and other alternatives are to be preferred to an abortion. But reality is not as easy as that.
Most girls I know, no matter HOW careful with condoms, the pill, have a moments panic every month if their period is even a day late.
This is not something that just happens to uneducated or careless people.
This is an issue that could (or possibly already has) effect your sister/mother/best friend.
It is not a problem that afew bible quotes can solve.
Be good to yourself because nobody else has the power to make you happy.
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Rilla
- Posts: 941
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:14 am
Re:
by Devilzchild on Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:55 pm
Grr - it makes me so mad all these idiots arguing about abortion that have never been there, never had to make the choice.
How many unwanted children do u want, who will be neglected and resented because the parents did not want them and did not terminate a clump of cells that are not a a sentient being!
As for who should make the decision, both parties involved should have a say but ultimately it's the woman who has to deal with the emotional and psychological effects of both carrying and giving birth to a child, so she really has the final say in the matter.
How many unwanted children do u want, who will be neglected and resented because the parents did not want them and did not terminate a clump of cells that are not a a sentient being!
As for who should make the decision, both parties involved should have a say but ultimately it's the woman who has to deal with the emotional and psychological effects of both carrying and giving birth to a child, so she really has the final say in the matter.
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Devilzchild
- Posts: 95
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Re:
by harmless loony on Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:27 pm
Just to add my 2 pennies worth, I firmly believe that it depends on individual cases. To say that as a whole it is either right or wrong, without taking into account individual circumstances is a gross misjudgement.
From a Muslim perspective, as ultimately that is where I take my guidance from, - it makes clear that this is not a clear cut issue and abortion is actually permitted in some circumstances.
I think it is important to view this from an individual perspective and not to assume that a blanket opinion gives the best view of the issue.
I also feel that men should be consulted and be allowed to give their opinion when it affects them but the ultimate decision should lie with the woman.
From a Muslim perspective, as ultimately that is where I take my guidance from, - it makes clear that this is not a clear cut issue and abortion is actually permitted in some circumstances.
I think it is important to view this from an individual perspective and not to assume that a blanket opinion gives the best view of the issue.
I also feel that men should be consulted and be allowed to give their opinion when it affects them but the ultimate decision should lie with the woman.
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harmless loony
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