The Pope

[quarterstaff]

[s]md25 wrote on 12:15, 2nd Apr 2005:
If you read the Catholic press you'll spot that they claim "condoms don't prevent AIDS", as apparently the HIV virion is smaller than the nanoscale holes present in every latex thing. I'm notionally a Catholic but I recognise this as the pish it is (a HIV particle is composed of thousands upon thousands of atoms whereas a water molecule is composed of three, condoms don't leak) and that's one of the things most trying about the faith - the heirarchy's peddling of lies in support of their dogma.

One in six people claim him as some form of spiritual leader though. Not bad going.



as far as i am aware, the issue of the use of condoms is left up to the moral discretion of individual catholics, though the church does promote abstinence first.


oh, and the catholic church in africa is totally different... they are the crazy HIV virus claim people, i think.

[Bonnie]

[s]David Bean wrote on 02:30, 2nd Apr 2005:
However, when it comes to the Third World, I think the Church could stand to take a more moderate view irrespective of its theological position. [/s]

I'd rather it took a theological view irrespecive of political and popular pressures. The Church isn't there to be democratically accountable, it is there to promote the Word of God. Should the flock tell the shephard where to go? Yes, I called us sheep, but that is metaphorically appropriate when talking about scripture.

[s] It ought to state that whilst it maintains its opposition to contraception, it wouldn't attempt to impose its view by opposing (or declining to fund) projects that use contraception as part of a programme of measures designed at combatting AIDS, so long as those projects can be demonstrated to offer the best value for money in terms of lives saved or infections prevented. In taking that sort of line, it would demonstrate a proactive mentality, essentially saying that whilst Catholics still believe contraception to be wrong in principle, there are greater problems affecting those who live in the Third World than the potential spiritual damage attendent on using condoms - namely, the risk of being infected with AIDS.[/s]

What you forget is that the Church has all the right to do with its funding as it will. Do you not pay taxes to your government? Can you not donate to other groups? Let them fund as many different programmes as they wish, but the Church has its guidelines and I think it's unfair to ask it to fund what it believes are sins.

Should I ask you rob an old lady? No. It's not something you believe is right and I shouldn't make you do it just because I say so.

And you suggest that the Church take the same stance as the Students' Association? You forget, though, that the Church and the Students' Association do not share the same beliefs concerning extra-marital sex! Quite frankly, if everyone followed the Church's teachings on that as much as they do on the use of condoms, then the risk of sexually transmitted diseases would be GREATLY reduced! Only by taking it piecemeal to people have trouble with the logic of the Church's stance on contraception. One could adjust your comments to say that there is still a risk of bodily fluids being shared in other situations and thus the risk will never go away, but does the Church bar the use of latex gloves in hospitals, etc? I only see a weakness in that someone could get an STD in one of these non-sexual situations (or rape or childbirth, etc) and would be having unprotected sex with their husband or wife. In this case I think it's up to that couple to decide with their God-given consciences as to whether they should protect themselves and still have sex (and not bare children without greatly increasing the risk...), not protect themselves and have children (and risk spreading the diseases), or not have sex at all (hey, it is an option, even if it's not the most immediately gratifying. People did it for thousands of years when they just didn't want to have kids.)

And I'd like to point out that there are plenty of medical practices which are, if read in a strict sense, against the teachings of the Church. One of these is a woman havign her Fallopian tubes tied or a vasectomy becauase it's preventing the full intended purpose of our bodies, but sometimes it's a medical necessity and it's between those individuals and God to decide what is best.

It just irritate me when everyone in the consumer-driven instant gratification world goes on an on about how contraception is going to save the world from the plagues of STDs and then forget to mention the safest method of all time.

[Kelp]

Does anyone know if any of the spread betting firms are doing in-running on Pope-death?

[Haunted]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399715.stm
Well thats that then I guess

the sweepstake should be on how many more days the news will be concerned with this

[Koala Boy]

I vote Paul for the papacy!

[hr]He sleeps 19 hours a day, and eats 5 hours a day. He allows you to pet him, not so much because he likes it, but because he's too lazy to do anything about it.
IMAGE:images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:Shzgv4TMVXgJ:www.filelibrary.com:8080/cgi-bin/freedownload/Multi-Platform/l/90/koala.gif

[md25]

[s]quarterstaff wrote on 13:49, 2nd Apr 2005:
as far as i am aware, the issue of the use of condoms is left up to the moral discretion of individual catholics, though the church does promote abstinence first.

oh, and the catholic church in africa is totally different... they are the crazy HIV virus claim people, i think.

I've always gotten the NO SEX AT ALL OK line of dogma. And the crazy HIV claims were repeated in The Universe, the RC church's organ in SW Scotland. I think I paid 50p for that.

The papacy is in transition now, anyway. I hope the next one has a cool hat.

[JM]

U people are totally sick and twisted. OK, i am not a devoted catholic, but to make jokes about when someone is going to die? i mean, come on people. May'be, just may'be, you aren't catholics so don't really care about the head of the church, but to make jokes about a person and when they are goin to die - thats plain wrong. it's also not "cool" and i doubt many will think ur sense of humor is hilarious.

[hr]"Life can be full of many problems"; this can be translated into "tormenting you is how the big man gets his jollies"

[Paul]

[s]flarewearer wrote on 11:07, 2nd Apr 2005:
Where's Paul when you need him for some fire and brimstone?


I have just been very busy with other things lately.

[exnihilo]

Well, at 19:37 (21:37 local time), His Holiness Pope John Paul II passed away. Catholic or not, we can all mark the passing of a man who walked the world stage for 26 years and did his best, according to his lights.

Requiescat in pace.

[Paul]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 11:23, 2nd Apr 2005:
Pauls posts lead me to believe that he's probably coming from a fairly strict Baptist background (apologies Paul, if I'm wrong) in which case, the cynic in me wants to say... he's probably celebrating...


As I have mentioned elsewhere, my upbringing was High Church of England.

I presume it is your experience of Southern Baptists which lead you to believe that I am Baptist, and not my posts - since I have usually quoted Presbyterian sources when not quoting the Bible.

Actually, I would now be classed as Particular (or Strict) Baptist - that is a Baptist who believes Reformed (also known as Calvinist) theology, having been converted while at Uni initially to an Arminian form and subsequently growing out of it.

[s]La Jouissance wrote on 11:32, 2nd Apr 2005:
I was about to say exactly the same thing. Don't some baptists reckon the Holy Father is the antichrist?


All the Reformed confessions of Faith hold that the Papacy is the anti-christ (see quotations below). Further, the title Vicar of Christ bears this out. Vicar comes from the Latin vicarius which means "substitute". The Biblical Greek word for "substitute" ,"in place of" "instead of" according to the Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament produced by the United Bible Societies is anti. Translate Vicar of Christ into Biblical Greek and you get: antichristos - enough said!

“There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God.” – Westminster Confession of Faith 1646 Chapter 25 Paragraph VI, the accepted Subordinate Standard of Presbyterians (can be seen here http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ with scriptural proofs)

“There is no other Head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God, whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.” – Savoy Declaration of Faith and Order 1658, Chapter 26, Paragraph 4, the standard for Congregationalists.

“The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.” – Baptist Confession of Faith 1689, Chapter 26, Paragraph 4.

You can read quotations from founders of the main denominations on the subject here: http://www.historicist.com/articles2/delusion.htm .

Then there is also Aberdeen Professor J A Wylie’s work, The Papacy is the Antichrist on-line here: http://www.historicism.net/readingmater ... papacy.pdf .
[hr]
"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. “ – I John 2:18

[LonelyPilgrim]

Well, you learn something new every day. I didn't know that the Reformed church regarded the Pope as antichrist. This makes me wonder about my own quasi-denomination. I say quasi- as I'm not actually a member, but in so far as I was raised in a church, I was raised in the First United Presbyterian Church and still attend on occassion. I certainly have heard no anti-papal sermons, nor have I heard anti-papal statements speaking to other members. In fact, the church building itself doubles as a part time Catholic chapel, as the town is too small to have one. It's also used by the UCC. It's probably a very confused building.

Anyway, Paul, since you're watching this space... Why did the Calvinist Churches start calling themselves Reformed? I've wondered that for a long time.

Also, when you say that the Pope is antichrist, do you mean that he is inherently evil and hostile to Christ, or merely that he pretentiously sets himself up in Christ's place, though not neccessarily evil, per se?

And if your confession regards the Pope as antichrist, what do you consider the old Byzantine emperor to have been... considering his title included "God's Vice-Regent on Earth" and who was regarded as being, in part, a manifestation of Christ's will?

And Paul, it's the excessive Biblical quotations that scream Baptist. I don't know why, but Baptists seem to feel that almost every comment should be accompanied with a Bible verse or twenty. (Exaggeration, I know... but still...)

[hr]I sing of arms, and the man...

[fran]

Actually I had been hoping that the pope would die for quite some time. Just because he didn't seem to lead a life worth living anymore and because I hope that someone new might advance the Catholic church a bit more- into the 20th century let's say. (Hey, they ARE in the 19th now, having recognized the Darwinian theory as right in 1992).
The pope had some horribly wrong stances:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4288103.stm
("The Pope likens abortion to Holocaust"),
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/456638.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/376716.stm

but I admired him for the role that he played in the "liberalization" (sorry, it's kinda late- losing my English) of Poland.
Who do you think will be his successor?

[Rrrr]

Even as a non-believer, I can accept the (ex-)Pope as being an extraordinary man and someone whose death is worthy of some attention.
I'm just glad it's over, I watched my grandmother die in very similar circumstances (bar all the head of the catholic church stuff) and while it's sad to see them pass, the end of their lives was no fun at all and it was time to go.
Plus they kept giving it the "not yet cured"/recovery crap - no he won't - when your body starts to fail after 30 years of the best medical care in the world, that's it!

[hr]Splat!

[Manic23]

Rest in Peace Big Man.

[Andrew Cusack]

[s]fran wrote on 23:04, 2nd Apr 2005:
I hope that someone new might advance the Catholic church a bit more- into the 20th century let's say.

Prepare to be disappointed.

[quarterstaff]

amen

[exnihilo]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 22:57, 2nd Apr 2005:What do you consider the old Byzantine emperor to have been... considering his title included "God's Vice-Regent on Earth"

Vicegerent, surely?

[Zombie Sheep]

Oh, well, he is gone - a bit of an anticlimax in the end. I respected him, I think, even though I am not a Catholic. Perhaps the church will take this as a chance to modernise - Black African Pope anyone?

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Yup, I knew he'd be dead before the end of the weekend.

[Al]

"All the Reformed confessions of Faith hold that the Papacy is the anti-christ (see quotations below). Further, the title Vicar of Christ bears this out. Vicar comes from the Latin vicarius which means "substitute". The Biblical Greek word for "substitute" ,"in place of" "instead of" according to the Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament produced by the United Bible Societies is anti. Translate Vicar of Christ into Biblical Greek and you get: antichristos - enough said!"

I suspect that the above may be the biggest pile of rubbish you have yet written.

[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.