by Paul on Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:12 am
[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 13:22, 8th Apr 2005:
[s]Paul wrote on 13:03, 8th Apr 2005:[i]
[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 12:44, 8th Apr 2005:[i]
Paul,
Pride, especially seems to be one that it is difficult for 'True Believers' to shake, and I'd say there is some evidence that it is a malus you still struggle with...
Would you be so good as to provide a practical example or two of this?
[/i]
Oh, if you recall back to the Experiment thread, there was something you mentioned about knowing Catholic theology more than a raised Catholic. Now, it very well may be true... but to even make such a statement is... well, arrogant.[/i]
I was merely stating what is generally the state of Roman Catholic laity with whom I have had contact - and there have been a lot of them - from friends and relations, through neighbours. I have also had contact with priests, scholars, apologists, and a couple of bishops - one of whom became Cardinal Winning, all of whom have helped increase my knowledge of the system. However, I usually (there have been a few notable exceptions) eventually get just one of two reactions from them - they either refuse to discuss the matter any further, or else become personal and abusive.
If that appeared as pride, it wasnot meant to. Arrogant? - well, it seems that to have a definitive opinion these days is taken as arrogance. The person without knowledge assumes that the other just has "an opinion" - and to express it forcefully is then "arrogance".
Here is the apostle Paul's appeal to Timothy:
"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." - I Timothy 1:8-13
That is the truth, but us that not classed as "arrogance" by those who do not have such knowledge?
But then, I am the last person in the world who can really call someone out for pride. "Let he who is without sin..." and all that. Which actually raises another point... if the sinless are the one's who are supposed to cast stones, but the one sinless man to live DIDN'T do so, where do 'true' believers get off publically attacking others? It's fine enough to believe, say, homosexuality is a sin... but to go and start telling everyone and say those who are are condemned and going to hell... isn't that casting stones, hmmm?
The one sinless man DID do so!
"And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up." - John 2:13-17
"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.
Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father.
Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." - John 8:37-47
And the Apostle Peter and Paul did the same. Here part of Peter's sermon at Pentecost:
"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
... Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." - Acts 2:14, 22-23
And now, I must get back to work!
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20