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Re:

Postby ezra on Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:38 pm

ah, now it becomes clear. the catholic church believes contradictory things. I quote:

Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means. (16)


but

the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained.


and tries to get around this obvious inconsistency by claiming that:

In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the latter they obstruct the natural development of the generative process.


but this is evidently a poor distinction: the 'natural development of the generative process' is equally obstructed by deliberately engaging in intercourse only when the woman is not going to conceive.

now if we allow artificial contraception, of course, then:

Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. . . . Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires


Yep, that's right chaps; engaging in safe sex may cause you to treat your partner as a mere instrument for the satisfaction of your own desires. Better to risk chlamydia and children . . .

incredible.
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Re:

Postby Midget on Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:02 pm

Quoting donkey from 20:15, 22nd Nov 2005

I think is that it's a crazy dogma that rationality is the basis of ethical philosophy.


So you would rather ethical philosophy or indeed any area of philosophy (they are all quite heavily linked) was based on...

...irrationality???

Its like when American right-wingers were like "We don't think philosophers like Peter Singer should have any say in legal issues, they're too academic" ie they think too much.

You cannot be too rational, as humans we need to do more thinking not less for CHRIST'S SAKE.

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Re:

Postby donkey on Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:18 pm

Quoting Midget from 22:02, 22nd Nov 2005
Quoting donkey from 20:15, 22nd Nov 2005

I think is that it's a crazy dogma that rationality is the basis of ethical philosophy.


So you would rather ethical philosophy or indeed any area of philosophy (they are all quite heavily linked) was based on...

...irrationality???

Its like when American right-wingers were like "We don't think philosophers like Peter Singer should have any say in legal issues, they're too academic" ie they think too much.

You cannot be too rational, as humans we need to do more thinking not less for CHRIST'S SAKE.


No, I didn't mean that we should conciously base moral philosophy on irrationality. I just meant that a rationalist constructivism, of the type I think erza advocates, might itself need to be built on suppositions (which I would call dogmas) about the nature of how to approach ethical questions.

I think rationality has a large part to play in moral arguments - a very large part - but not the whole part.

Incidently, Peter Singer certainly doesn't think that ethics is built on rationality. I'm fairly certain that he sees it as a life choice.

And you're absolutely right. As humans we do need to think more.
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NFP / the rhythm method

Postby hugger mugger on Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:56 pm

Just to clarify this a bit! "The rhythm method" is an outdated term and isn't interchangeable with what the Church does condone, which is natural family planning. That aside, NFP is supported by the Church because, unlike artifical contraception, it respects the body's natural rhythms and should be practised for non-selfish reasons. It takes advantage of the natural cycles of the body by tracking when it is fertile or infertile. The difference between it and the rhythm method lies in this: while the latter simply involved counting days, NFP observes and tracks physical signs, so can only really occur within a committed, loving relationship because of the intimacy and communication involved in observing these signs. The point is, it is not artificial contraception; that is to say, it places no physical or chemical barriers in front of the ability to conceive and conception is never completely ruled out.
Furthermore, NFP is much healthier overall. It may not have a 100% success rate (because only abstinence does) but it isn't the chemical onslaught of abortifacient drugs and it doesn't upset the natural hormonal balance within women's bodies - like the Pill does. Sorry if I sound like an NFP advert here, but just to clarify :)
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Re:

Postby hugger mugger on Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:58 pm

The very phrase "better to risk children" - AND to equate children with chlamydia - serves as a fine example for the lack of respect given to human life. Children are viewed as a dangerous side-effect of having sex. And on the subject of animals, it is disgusting that this is a world in which constant uproars about animal rights (the fox hunting issue, for example) can exist alongside a steadily increasing willingness to kill human embryos - human life - for experimental purposes. As for safe sex and using women as an "instrument", did it maybe occur to you that, by going on the Pill or using the morning-after pill, women are simply pumping themselves full of chemicals in order to cater to the myth that we are somehow unable to control our sexual desires? Hardly progressive, that.
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Re:

Postby DrAlex on Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting hugger mugger from 20:57, 22nd Nov 2005
...to kill human embryos - human life - for experimental purposes...


Your grasp on biology is an affront to every fibre of my being.

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Re:

Postby La Jouissance on Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:16 pm

Where are either Cusack or Covino when you need them? Or even Paul for that matter?
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Re:

Postby Bitterandtwisted on Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:29 pm

Quoting hugger mugger from 20:57, 22nd Nov 2005
to equate children with chlamydia - serves as a fine example for the lack of respect given to human life. Children are viewed as a dangerous side-effect of having sex.


Life is nothing but a sexualy transmitted disease. And it is invariably fatal.

I also miss Paul

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Re:

Postby Senethro on Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:40 pm

I miss Paul like I miss my wisdom teeth.

And hugger mugger is in for a big shock when Darth Ratzinger reveals his true power.
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jesus [irony]

Postby ezra on Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:36 am

Huggermugger:

while the latter simply involved counting days, NFP observes and tracks physical signs, so can only really occur within a committed, loving relationship because of the intimacy and communication involved in observing these signs


Sorry: do you have any idea at all what is involved in practicing NFP? I'll spare the Sinner readership the details, but you should note that the husband (or male partner) has got very little to do with it, unless he's particularly keen on thermometers and mucus.

The very phrase "better to risk children" - AND to equate children with chlamydia - serves as a fine example for the lack of respect given to human life


Please, engage your brain when you read. I wasn't equating children with chlamydia; I was linking unprotected sex with the risk of acquiring sexually transmitted diseases. Children aren't viewed as a dangerous side-effect of sex; unwanted pregnancy, however, is. Even the Catholic Church admits this - hence the emphasis on 'natural planning methods'. If children were always a bonus, family planning would be a complete waste of time.

As for safe sex, I'm talking about safe sex, i.e. barrier methods. Women don't pump themselves full of chemicals in order to cater to the myth that we're unable to control our sexual desires, you nasty little misogynist; they use contraception in order to avoid a) STDs and b) unwanted pregnancy. Yeah, it's hardly progress. Maybe we should have kept them in the kitchen.
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Re:

Postby novium on Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:01 am

If people only had sex with their spouses, ever, then chances are, HIV would not be an issue.

I'm not saying this is practical; but on the other hand, it's religion, it's supposed to be about encouraging people towards a higher standard (however that is defined by whichever religion) not about going, "oh well, they're only human" and being practical.

And before the argument even comes up: if you aren't going to listen to the church about extramarital relations, why would you care wha tthey have to say about condoms? For not all sins are considered equal.
Quoting ezra from 20:11, 22nd Nov 2005
I hardly think Catholics can be called crazy dogmatists. They just think sex is a natural gift of God, not to be interfered with.


sounds like crazy dogma to me. the same kind of crazy dogma which says that it's better to contract HIV than to use a condom.
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Re:

Postby flarewearer on Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:22 am

If the Catholic church was as vociferous at defending the rights of those young women and girls who become pregnant and / or contract AIDS as a result of sex against their will (rape / prostitution etc.) as they were at defending their stone-age position in the modern world then it might be different.

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Re:

Postby novium on Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:46 am

maybe. But i'm just tired of the Church being depicted as the grand villians of the picture.
Quoting flarewearer from 07:22, 23rd Nov 2005
If the Catholic church was as vociferous at defending the rights of those young women and girls who become pregnant and / or contract AIDS as a result of sex against their will (rape / prostitution etc.) as they were at defending their stone-age position in the modern world then it might be different.

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Re:

Postby Senethro on Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:21 am

But they are! The CAtholic Church was Peter's greatest betrayal of Jesus and the best indication that he just didn't get what Jesus was saying. There are few religions more organised than catholicism and Jesus spoke out against organisation and the rest often enough.
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Re:

Postby Yeats on Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:26 am

Quoting Senethro from 08:21, 23rd Nov 2005
But they are! The CAtholic Church was Peter's greatest betrayal of Jesus and the best indication that he just didn't get what Jesus was saying. There are few religions more organised than catholicism and Jesus spoke out against organisation and the rest often enough.


Nothing like making hugely bold satements and not backing them up is there? Where is your evidence that the Catholic Church betrayed Jesus's teaching?


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Re:

Postby Bonnie on Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:53 pm

Quoting ezra from 02:36, 23rd Nov 2005
As for safe sex, I'm talking about safe sex, i.e. barrier methods. Women don't pump themselves full of chemicals in order to cater to the myth that we're unable to control our sexual desires, you nasty little misogynist; they use contraception in order to avoid a) STDs and b) unwanted pregnancy. Yeah, it's hardly progress. Maybe we should have kept them in the kitchen.


Please use your brain when you read. There is not such thing as safe sex. Tell me how sex can be completely void of risks.

And yes, contraception is used to try to avoid such risks (at a less than perfect effectiveness rate- heart medicine gets taken off shelves with better track records!) because the user has chosen not to control sexual desires instead. Therefore those who use contraceptives pump themselves full of chemicals, depending on the method, and perpetuate the idea that sexual desires are a higher priority than our health.

And if you dare call me a misogynist, you will officially be the stupidest person I have ever encountered. And I've met a lot of stupid people in my line of work.

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Re:

Postby ezra on Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:09 pm

bonnie; ok, safer sex. whatever.

those who use contraceptives need not pump themselves full of chemicals. even those who do aren't necessarily endangering their health (references?). and why on earth do you think the idea that 'sexual desires are a higher priority than our health' is being perpetuated by people using contraception? for starters, there is an unacceptably high rate of teenage pregnancy and STD transmission in this country (7-10,000 teenage pregnancies last year). people will have sex even without contraception: my minimal claim is that it would be better if they used some form of contraception.

secondly, your position is analogous to someone who thinks that, by exercising to lose weight, we're perpetuating the myth that desire for food is a higher priority than our health. satisfying basic desires - hunger, thirst, sex, having children in some cases, friendship, etc - contributes to happiness; you don't sacrifice your health by having safer sex. come to think of it, you reduce the risk of transmitting disease.
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Re:

Postby sigh.... on Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:21 pm

We all just love a good bit of Catholic bashing don't we? The double standards in this place are frankly appalling. If I were to come on here saying that Muslims, Jews and Hindus are evil, I would be jumped upon from a great height, censored, called a racist and a fascist and all the rest. But come on here and say that CATHOLICS are evil - well, that's A-OK, isn't it?!

also,

"But they are! The CAtholic Church was Peter's greatest betrayal of Jesus and the best indication that he just didn't get what Jesus was saying. There are few religions more organised than catholicism and Jesus spoke out against organisation and the rest often enough."

NO. Go and readd Acts, for goodness' sake! Then go and look up Matthew 4: 18-19. And think about the words "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"; would Jesus have said that if he thought that maybe Peter didn't "get" it? Oh, and spell Catholicism with a capital C, please.
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Re:

Postby ezra on Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:56 pm

um, hang on a second; i'm not saying that catholics are evil, I'm saying that the Catholic church has some pretty objectionable dogma - like the prohibition on condoms, for instance.

Islam also has some pretty objectionable dogma when taken to extremes; c.f. prohibition on educating women, which I take to be a violation of a right.
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Re:

Postby Maidmarion on Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:18 pm

Personally I quite like the freedom to have the pill as I believe it's pretty liberating for a woman to be able to take control of her own body. A guy who doesn't understand this is a mysoginist.
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