Scottish people, you are not British

[Malcolm]

Look at things this way:

There are pro-Scots nationalist zealots, spreading crap about our wonderful heritage in the Govan slums, William Wallace gaining martyrdom, shipyards, oil, independence, and all that.

Those days are gone. Such zealotry stems from the fact they know fine well that Scotland has bugger all to show for it now. Get over it, Scotland is the sick man of Europe. Scotland is not rich, it's a dull, soulless place to live lacking any kind of cultural kick, and the endless banging on about how good we supposedly are really drags people down. Also, the endless political strife, and the exponential rise in the number of unemployed chav scum, heart disease, and the gap between rich and poor really does wonders for us.

Or maybe my Edinburgh background makes me pre-programmed to look down on the place from a great height, I don't know. But these are my opinions.

[Steveo]

1979 1992 1997 1999 2000
Scottish 56% 72% 72% 77% 80%
British 38% 25% 24% 17% 13%
Base 661 957 882 1482 1663

Table 1.1 (David McCrone – National identity in Scotland) - The data above relates to a ‘forced choice’ question, which made the respondent choose whether they consider themselves first and foremost Scottish or British.


[hr]

Not my ethics.

[David Bean]

I started to skim-read this page around the time when it became boring, but I do have just a couple of observations to make. Firstly, I agree with Alex and Flare that our national identity can only be self-classificatory; I would consider myself, for one, to be Scottish, as I was born and brought up here. That my parents were English should not signify over much, yet if I chose to identify myself more strongly with England, I don't see that it's anyone else's concern to tell me I shouldn't. Yet, in primary school, because I spoke with a strong English accent (which is less strong today, but still noticeable) I was often bullied, as it were, by the more mindlessly nationalistic amongst my peers as a 'sassenach' who should 'go back home'.

Now, thankfully the students of St Andrews tend to take a rather more enlightened view of things, but nonetheless it does happen once in a while when I explain to someone that, yes, I am actually Scottish within Britain, though I'd consinder myself British outwith it. Eyebrows, I should note, that it would be horribly un-PC (and also, unlike a lot of issues relating to political correctness, genuinely wrong) to raise to the son of Asian immigrant parents when he had been born and raised in Scotland.

Either way, what I don't think is helpful is when people like Odessyus make claims that identification is or should be based upon ethnicity - for one thing that would tend to exclude the significant immigrant populations we're fortunate enough to have - or political parties like the SNP use rhetorical sleight-of-hand by purporting to make descriptive claims about how 'the Scots' see themselves (abstracted from their own supporters, naturally) when what they are really trying to do is to make normative claims about how they should see themselves, in order to boost their own support.

So far as the independence question is concerned, I've made this argument before, but I honestly don't see how a simple majority of Scots voting for independence (or even a supermajority, for that matter) provides the sufficient moral basis for depriving those who don't agree, of their birthright to consider the Derbyshire dales and the heights of Snowdon to be as much their own as the lands north of the Tweed.

[hr]

I'm your Guardian Angel.

[Iain]

Malcolm the zealots you describe may exist but they are not the ideas that policy is based upon. Policy is based upon solving the problems you mention and your hatred of the SNP is not merited.

We do not represent some kind of backward thinking patriotism. I admit there are many Scots that like to think that way; but we have policies to make Scotland better.

And I don't see Scotland's problems being solved at any great rate by Labour down in London or the puppets up in Holyrood.

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[puzzled]

Quoting Iain from 12:58, 15th Jan 2006
Firstly we'd see that problem coming by the voting patterns of the people in the Scottish elections for there is a strong enough correlation between independence fans and SNP votes.

Most likely the Central belt could vote to stay in the Union; it wouldn't be overwhelming but...

...to answer your question. If the majority votes for independence; we open negotiations with Westminster no matter the regional pattern as far as I can see. As above; overwhelming rejection in a part of the country is unlikely.

So, just to be clear, a county would be told that its democratically expressed wishes are being ignored and they would be forced to change their status quo?

It seems remarkable that the nats are wailing that they want to be able to chose to go independent, but they wont let others chose as well (unless they make the right choice)

[Queeg]

Quoting Malcolm from 14:37, 15th Jan 2006


Those days are gone. Such zealotry stems from the fact they know fine well that Scotland has bugger all to show for it now. Get over it, Scotland is the sick man of Europe. Scotland is not rich, it's a dull, soulless place to live lacking any kind of cultural kick, and the endless banging on about how good we supposedly are really drags people down. Also, the endless political strife, and the exponential rise in the number of unemployed chav scum, heart disease, and the gap between rich and poor really does wonders for us.

So maybe it's time for a change then? Perhaps one of the reasons Scotland isn't rich is the deficit between money generated by Scotland and the money spent in Scotland. As for being dull, life is what you make of it.

[Rufus]

To be truly patriotic one must want what is best for one's country.

The SNP are simply not what Scotland needs at this time in its history. However, I admire the fervency of the party. They may err in word-choice (not to mention Nicola Sturgeon- by God she could curdle the nation's milk) but their sentiment - a passion for their country - is to be applauded.

And as for Scotland turning into a tartan-crazed shortbread nation, I'm curious as to why this should be condescending.

Painfully tacky, yes. But all it is is a money-making initiative, and it hurts no-one. Every country has its less than salubrious tourist tat.


(Sorry to sound rather pompous, nonsensical and grammatically ropey- feeling slightly woozy).

[hr]

'Love much. Earth has enough bitter in it'
Ella Wheeler Wilcox

[Iain]

Well in reply to puzzled:

You see, I hope, that your question seems to suggest that a county can decide its destiny as opposed to the rest of the country - funny that, I think that's where the Scotland v United Kingdom debate comes from!

I don't think you can claim the SNP want to not let people chose independence; that is why we host a referendum in the first place. This is a national matter; not a county-by-county one.

All those Tory voters who aren't in Goverment should form their own parliament, should they?

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[Smith]

Scotland will never become an independent state. And just how would it improve the country if it did?

I have to agree with flare on this issue, there's nothing wrong with being pro-british and pro-scottish, and I think a lot of anti-british people are harming more than helping progress with scotland.

[hr]

We're not drunk, we're multi-millionaires...
IMAGE:img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/ryanlewisjones/burlyman.jpg

[DrAlex]

Quoting Rufus from 16:26, 15th Jan 2006
Painfully tacky, yes. But all it is is a money-making initiative, and it hurts no-one. Every country has its less than salubrious tourist tat.

Anyone who disagrees with her should see "Wimbledon", "Noting Hill" or any Olsen Twins/Hilary Duff/whoever movie set in London.

[hr]

La loi est dure, mais l'aigle ne chasse pas les mouches.
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[Al]

It's good to know that there are sabbs who are such strong supporters of the democratic principle.

[David Bean]

I just don't think my nationality should be determined by referendum, that's all!

[hr]

I'm your Guardian Angel.

[Iain]

Quoting David Bean from 17:52, 15th Jan 2006
I just don't think my nationality should be determined by referendum, that's all!

Your nationality is, in my opinion, what you choose it to be; the state says I must be Great British or something; well I choose to be Scottish.

Referendum; "are you Scottish or British?" I don't think so!
Or; "do you wish the Scotland (as defined by the border) and its people to take full control of their own affairs?" The second one is the way I see it; and it doesn't tell you "you must be Scottish" does it?

If I was a Norwegian living in Scotland, hey I'd still probably call myself Norwegian!

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[David Bean]

All right then, substitute 'citizenship' for 'nationality' - that was, after all, the sense in which I was using the word - and re-run.

[hr]

I'm your Guardian Angel.

[OffHeGoes]

Quoting Iain from 18:34, 15th Jan 2006

Quoting David Bean from 17:52, 15th Jan 2006
I just don't think my nationality should be determined by referendum, that's all!

Your nationality is, in my opinion, what you choose it to be; the state says I must be Great British or something; well I choose to be Scottish.

Referendum; "are you Scottish or British?" I don't think so!
Or; "do you wish the Scotland (as defined by the border) and its people to take full control of their own affairs?" The second one is the way I see it; and it doesn't tell you "you must be Scottish" does it?


[hr]

it does to a customs official...

[Iain]

Quoting David Bean from 20:58, 15th Jan 2006
All right then, substitute 'citizenship' for 'nationality' - that was, after all, the sense in which I was using the word - and re-run.

In that case I'll give the cowards answer - you are perfectly entitled to still be a holder of a UK passport... but you just happen to live in Scotland. Sounds fine to me; I'll be holding an Irish passport in a while and living in the UK. Hmm. Maybe not the best response but you are pitting yourself and your debating against a geologist. Not much of a contest.

For all those out there who say why should I or any other "nat" be so hyped up about Scotland then I'd have to ask the reverse; what is so special about the UK that you all want to keep it?!

I shall shortly be finding a substitute since this is about my 14th post on this one thread; someone younger and who doesn't have an exam tomorrow...

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[David Bean]

Well, all right, except of course that the UK wouldn't really exist in the sense in which we know it were Scotland to become independent.

Tell me this, then: what's the SNP's policy regarding citizenship post-independence? I know that they want to retain the Monarchy and presumably stay within the Commonwealth (and the EU, although it's interesting to note that key Eurocrats have pointed out that the admission of an independent Scotland into the EU would by no means be assured), but does the SNP have an offical policy stating that they would be willing to negotiate for Scots to have an automatic right to claim dual (ie. Scottish and British) citizenship? Would this apply only to living Scots, or be a perpetual arrangement? And would this be a red-line issue in any independence negotiation - that is, were it rejected, the project should have to be killed off?

Admittedly we're beginning to delve rather deeply into issues of constitutional law here, but these are key questions, and the SNP owes us an answer if they want to be taken seriously.

[hr]

I'm your Guardian Angel.

[Al]

"although it's interesting to note that key Eurocrats have pointed out that the admission of an independent Scotland into the EU would by no means be assured"

Surely the same would be true of England and Northern Ireland?

[Iain]

Quoting David Bean from 22:36, 15th Jan 2006
Well, all right, except of course that the UK wouldn't really exist in the sense in which we know it were Scotland to become independent.

Tell me this, then: what's the SNP's policy regarding citizenship post-independence? I know that they want to retain the Monarchy and presumably stay within the Commonwealth (and the EU, although it's interesting to note that key Eurocrats have pointed out that the admission of an independent Scotland into the EU would by no means be assured), but does the SNP have an offical policy stating that they would be willing to negotiate for Scots to have an automatic right to claim dual (ie. Scottish and British) citizenship? Would this apply only to living Scots, or be a perpetual arrangement? And would this be a red-line issue in any independence negotiation - that is, were it rejected, the project should have to be killed off?

Will I be a citizen of the new Scotland?
In the context of EU citizenship, the SNP has an open and inclusive approach to citizenship. The automatic right of citizenship will be open by right to all those living in Scotland, all those born in Scotland, and all those with a parent born in Scotland. All others are free to apply, and dual citizenship would be an option. The SNP believes that Scotland is not full up – Scotland’s problem is emigration, not immigration. We should therefore welcome the contribution of the new Scots who choose to make this country their home.

What if I don't want to become a Scottish citizen?
Even if a resident of Scotland, as of Independence Day, chooses not to take up Scottish citizenship, he or she will continue to enjoy an unaffected right to residency in the country, and the constitution proposed by the SNP would preclude any laws which sought to remove these rights.

Quotes taken directly from the SNP's "talking independence" booklet. I believe that allows you to be Scottish and British; Scottish; British but living in Scotland or indeed whatever you were when Scotland became independent; you can keep it.

As for the EU admission; I believe we are not far off the contrary... I'm not going to delve deeper on that topic since that is currently a matter of private correspondence within Europe.

Hope the above is an answer for you. The talking independence booklet aught to be freely available; I'm sure party HQ might send you a copy.

[[James]]

Quoting Iain from 21:52, 15th Jan 2006
For all those out there who say why should I or any other "nat" be so hyped up about Scotland then I'd have to ask the reverse; what is so special about the UK that you all want to keep it?!

Well surely the issue here is that people need to be persuaded - the case is that Scotland is currently a part of the UK and the SNP are proposing the change, and should therefore be forthcoming with reasons for why it would be a good idea - not the reverse.