Scottish people, you are not British

[DrAlex]

Quoting Al from 22:51, 15th Jan 2006
"although it's interesting to note that key Eurocrats have pointed out that the admission of an independent Scotland into the EU would by no means be assured"

Surely the same would be true of England and Northern Ireland?

Probably not, since Scotland would become the new nation, and Britain would just get smaller, i.e. of two nation-states.

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La loi est dure, mais l'aigle ne chasse pas les mouches.
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[puzzled]

Quoting Iain from 16:28, 15th Jan 2006
Well in reply to puzzled:

I don't think you can claim the SNP want to not let people chose independence; that is why we host a referendum in the first place. This is a national matter; not a county-by-county one.

A national one? scotland has not been an independent nationstate for 300 years. Are you seriously suggesting that, if a county in the borders overwhelmingly expressed their opposition to leaving the UK in a vote, the fact that it falls to the north of some 300 years-out-of-date line on a map should trump their expressed wishs.

Why should people be forced into this new scottish state simply because people else where voted for it?

I'd honestly have much more simpathy for the whole nationalist cause if they said they'd only want people to chose a new scottish state - otherwise you could theorectically have everyon forced to join against their will simply because glasgow and edinburgh voted for it simply because of the electoral maths (hypothetically)

[Iain]

Further reply to puzzled...

Well; I can be serious because I am firm in the knowledge that votes for independence are most likely to be rejected in the central belt.

Rejection in the central belt loses us the vote overall as it has done in elections for many a time.

Your hypothetical situation simply wouldn't happen! The north and the south might well vote yes overall these days; the middle bit is the problem and that's where the most people are. If they turn for independence gradually over time, as well they might; the rest of the country will have been having a majority for indpendence for quite a while.

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[Iain]

Quoting [James] from 23:20, 15th Jan 2006
Well surely the issue here is that people need to be persuaded - the case is that Scotland is currently a part of the UK and the SNP are proposing the change, and should therefore be forthcoming with reasons for why it would be a good idea - not the reverse.

True.

But I'm getting at the people who say "Scotland is crap," Britain's great. I've not heard a convincing argument for Britain being really good for Scotland so thought I'd throw that comment up in the air.

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[OffHeGoes]

Quoting Iain from 23:36, 15th Jan 2006
...the middle bit is the problem and that's where the most people are.

Damn that troublesome majority.

[flarewearer]

Quoting Iain from 23:36, 15th Jan 2006
Well; I can be serious because I am firm in the knowledge that votes for independence are most likely to be rejected in the central belt.

How about the North and West secede from the union all by themselves then, then we'd all be happy and we'd see who's laughing. Scotland needs the industrial, finanicial, economic and population heartland of the central belt, it may not be big, but its populous and important and the rest of the country can like it or lump it and go back to living off oats and potatoes washed down with gallons of refreshing north sea oil.

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[flarewearer]

Quoting Iain from 13:31, 15th Jan 2006
And I too ask about "pointless fights with the southern neighbour" because I think you'll find we had to fight to stop ourselves being dissolved.

You would do well to revise the history of the country who's best interests you and your ilk claim to have at heart

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image:www.magnificentoctopus.com/x/elgar.png

[flarewearer]

Quoting offhegoes from 01:38, 16th Jan 2006

Quoting Iain from 23:36, 15th Jan 2006
...the middle bit is the problem and that's where the most people are.

Damn that troublesome majority.

Yes damn them indeed! The SNP would be happy to use a majority vote to drag a minority into a situation they don't want to be in, but they can't stomach it when it works against them.

I also don't know where the nationalists get it that to be a unionist one is automatically a Tory, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Labour a party against independences also and the LibDems doing their usual fence-sitting act?

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image:www.magnificentoctopus.com/x/elgar.png

[Smith]

Quoting flarewearer from 02:22, 16th Jan 2006

Quoting offhegoes from 01:38, 16th Jan 2006

Quoting Iain from 23:36, 15th Jan 2006
...the middle bit is the problem and that's where the most people are.

Damn that troublesome majority.

Yes damn them indeed! The SNP would be happy to use a majority vote to drag a minority into a situation they don't want to be in, but they can't stomach it when it works against them.

I also don't know where the nationalists get it that to be a unionist one is automatically a Tory, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Labour a party against independences also and the LibDems doing their usual fence-sitting act?

[hr]

image:www.magnificentoctopus.com/x/elgar.png

Vote LibDem, and have no stance on anything!!!

[hr]

We're not drunk, we're multi-millionaires...
IMAGE:img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/ryanlewisjones/burlyman.jpg

[The Cellar Bar]

Quoting DrAlex from 23:22, 15th Jan 2006

Probably not, since Scotland would become the new nation, and Britain would just get smaller, i.e. of two nation-states.

Actually it would probably be more complicated than that.

In fact Scotland and England, for instance, already are nation-states in their own right and through the Unions become essentially a confederated state comprised of two nations. Interesting conundrum for many Unionists who are also anti-EU - Great Britain was probably the first federal or at least federated State in history. Strange they should be all in favour of one example of a United States of Britain but against the idea of closer European Union.

Great Britain in itself consists of Scotland, England and Wales and should Scotland achieve Independence the configuration would therefore cease. And the last I heard, any application from Scotland would be looked on favourably should we decide to apply for membership of the EU. In that respect what would make it interesting is that about 80% of the English population is against continued membership of the Union so their application would become decidedly more than moot

At the same time, Northern Ireland is not and never has been a part of Great Britain. It is a part of the United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Since the Great Britain part would no longer pertain, the United Kingdom, technically, would no longer exist either.

As it is, it's interesting to note that much of the "work" has already been done. The "blueprint" with regard to Scotland's fishing and oil rights and territorial waters were essentially "pencilled" in by both the United Nations and by what is now the EU back in the 70's and 80's. But Independence for Scotland would open up a whole can of worms and make for some real interesting observation.

[Al]

"You would do well to revise the history of the country who's best interests you and your ilk claim to have at heart"

Why? You're doing so well at revising the history of Scotland all by yourself.

[Rilla]

Quoting The Cellar Bar from 05:35, 16th Jan 2006
At the same time, Northern Ireland is not and never has been a part of Great Britain. It is a part of the United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Since the Great Britain part would no longer pertain, the United Kingdom, technically, would no longer exist either.

Thankyou!!! Someone that knows something at last!!!
Abit off the point, I know, but people in N.I. have never been British - it is not part of Britain, as The Cellar Bar said.
Also, I went to the N.I. debate here, and most people were using the terms "Ulster" and "Northern Ireland" interchangeably. They're not the same thing!!! Ulster has 9 counties, 3 of which (Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan) are part of the Republic.
Sorry, just something to clear up.

On the issue of Scotland - not really my place to say since it's not my country, but I don't think it's as complicated as you're all making out - as far as the Good Friday agreement goes - people in N.I. are entitled to have either a UK passport or an Irish one - surely something similar could be put in place here - as several people have said, it's not an either/or choice - you should be allowed to be Scottish and British if you so choose.
Why not hold a referendum here on the issue of an independent Scotland? At least then you'd know the result either way and could rest the issue for afew years.

[hr]

"O unworn world enrapture me, enrapture me in a web
Of fabulous grass and eternal voices by a beech"

[David Bean]

Ian: thank you for the information. I have to say I doubt I'd get much out of the SNP headquarters if I asked, though I get on quite well with Alec Salmond (about the only non-nationalist in St Andrews who does, too...).

Malcolm, not quite sure why you think it's odd that Unionists should be anti-EU - surely it's perfectly compatible to have no problem with the system of federalism per se, but just not want to enter into a federal union with Europeans for other reasons. Also, whilst what you say is true, were Scotland to vote for independence it would essentially be opting to secede from this federal union, just as the Confederate States' secession (if we assume it to have been legal for the sake of discussion) in 1860 didn't lead the United States of America to cease to exist. In the likely event that England seceded from the UK leaving Scotland and Wales (and Northern Ireland as part of the sovereign state, if you want to be technical about it) behind, it would presumably be the one that would have to re-apply for admission to the EU.

Rilla, the reason we don't hold a referendum today is that nobody in their right mind thinks it would pass, and in any case only the SNP has a manifesto committment to hold one, and they're not in power. None of the Unionist parties are likely to hold one, since they have enough to do aside from fighting a referendum campaign.

[hr]

I'm your Guardian Angel.

[Iain]

Just one thing to say so far there's a lot of discussion here; but flarewearer;

Where have you got it into your head that we think Unionists are Tories? In Scotland the trouble IS Labour because of the people who genetically seem to just vote for them time after time and the Lib Dems because they are similar enough to us that they take our votes directly where we should be wiping the cards.

I'll come back for more later....

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[exnihilo]

So if I read your manifesto quotations correctly (and it's tricky) it seems that they say those people who live in Scotland now (let's take me as an example) would be automatically entitled to Scottish citizenship but would have the option to not take it - right? Would we retain our British citizenship or would New Britain not want hundreds of thousands of expats north of the border. If not, we could be in an exciting limbo state of being European citizens without being citizens of any nation. That would be fun.

[Rufus]

1.
Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory!
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name.
Sae famed in martial story!
Now Sark rins over Salway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands --
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
2.
What force or guile could not subdue
Thro' many warlike ages
Is wrought now by a coward few
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane --
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
3.
O, would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour
I'll mak this declaration :-
'We're bought and sold for English gold'--
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

Robert Burns

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'Love much. Earth has enough bitter in it'
Ella Wheeler Wilcox

[Manic23]

Quoting Rilla from 10:01, 16th Jan 2006

Thankyou!!! Someone that knows something at last!!!
Abit off the point, I know, but people in N.I. have never been British - it is not part of Britain, as The Cellar Bar said.
Also, I went to the N.I. debate here, and most people were using the terms "Ulster" and "Northern Ireland" interchangeably. They're not the same thing!!! Ulster has 9 counties, 3 of which (Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan) are part of the Republic.
Sorry, just something to clear up.

[hr]

"O unworn world enrapture me, enrapture me in a web
Of fabulous grass and eternal voices by a beech"

Yes indeed, that in particular is something that seriously gets on my tits when people do that

[Iain]

The joys of trying to interpret that quotation for its exact meaning of citizenship; all I can suggest is you ask elected representatives of the SNP or better still ask for the policy unit at headquarters. As far as I see it; you can be Scottish/New British/whatever you like.

If I had my way you'd all be Scottish "citizens" but make a distinction between that and nationality.

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[Iain]

Rufus - thanks, needed that quote!

Smith - the Lib Dems do have a stance; it would appear to be called "fiscal autonomy" so maybe they aren't such a bad lot. The other stance they have is to go into coaltion with Labour. Not impressed one bit on that front however. Nor for their stance on recovering alcoholics!

[fat bastard]

But scotland IS part of the UK

we have as more in common with the English today then we do with the bloody Jacobites

so what's the beef?

scotland's inferiority complex is hilarious, or at least it would be if it didn't manifest itself into bigotry, xenophobia, intolerance and strife.

i mean, if we gain independence then fair enough, but we haven't and so we continue to be part of britain, whether we choose to be or not. so either join the SNP or shut up, quite frankly. don't whinge about the semantics of your nationality. 'we' have not been colonised by anyone, it happened hundreds of years ago. it is nothing to do with the current English or the current Scottish, it's just a relic of the past. So if you don't like it, work to change it. but nationalism, especially if it's based on opposition to others (ie the accursed english), is as bad as religious intolerance and just as pointless.

I feel now would be the time to quote Irvine Welsh

It's shite being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low! The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization! Some people hate English. I don't! They're just wankers! We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers! Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized by! We're ruled by effete arseholes! It's a shite state of affairs to be in, Tommy! And all the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference.