War With Iraq

[Cain]

"And for what it's worth, NOBODY has EVER used a nuclear weapon in a war. America used ATOMIC weapons in WWII. And guess what? It worked!"


I'm not much of a physicist (i only did it up to higher), so could somebody please explain the difference between a nuclear weapon and an atomic weapon? i thought that they were the same, with only Hydrogen bombs being different.

[Guest]

You realize though that some folk actually don’t believe it?! ... even scarier

[abdul malik]

[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 23:05, 30th Aug 2002:
Outside of America Tony Blair seems to be the only person in the world that wants to go to war with Iraq, shame he's running the country and that the Prime Minister happens to have the power to go to war without asking parliment (if I recall correctly). So bit of a worry, eh? Especially as our armed forces suck.

as a victim of islamic attacks this is the time to get our way of life and countries back
and i am muslim

[angry canadian chick]

the thing is, the americains have long wronged the middle east by exploiting them for their oil and starting/fuelling wars amongst them and their fellow countries. That's their beef with the US.
The US's beef? Oil. Do you think the government really care about the World Trade Center Bombings? No. They have other things on their mind. Truthfully, as soon as the oil in the middle east runs out, america is going to drop them like a hot potato and look elsewhere. Not care how the middle east is run at all. Bush is looking out for america's interests mainly to do with the oil that they consume, which is proposterous because if they know what's good for them, the americans should start looking into clean energy ideas,(ie, go with kyoto sp?)) becuase, the oil's gonna run out soon. very soon.
And freedom? Do you really think every country out there should be americainized. I mean, some of these countries have laws and ways that we consider inhumane, but the thing is, it's *THEIR* culture. What right do the americains have to waltz into a country not of their own and say "you are doing this wrong, you should do it this way.. be like us". NONE. I say the americains should stop sticking their nose in other peoples business.

[Nuke 'em all]

Frankly I'm glad i live in such times as these; we have an american president who doesn't, thankfuly, believe in all the 'liberal', useful-idiot bullshit that we, in the UK, are drowning in. Sadamm is a threat to western interests and so needs to be removed, I care not whether by Mossad hit squad, B-52 bunker buster, Nuke or military coup etc. In doing so the Iraqi people (and their children etc) will, allmost certainly, get a better standard of life and that should be celebrated.

The members of the left, of which this board has more than few, will howl at this view - but the best thing about it is that YOU DON'T MATTER. Put 1m people on the street of washington to protest, if you can, you are still totally irrelevant.

[Al]

"Frankly I'm glad i live in such times as these; we have an american president who doesn't, thankfuly, believe in all the 'liberal', useful-idiot bullshit that we, in the UK, are drowning in."

All that "liberal, useful-idiot(?) bullshit" like respect for human rights, democracy and freedom?

"Sadamm is a threat to western interests and so needs to be removed"

So, if Bush or Blair were seen as being a threat to, say, Chinese interests then presumably the Chinese would have the right to try to overthrow or assassinate them?

"I care not whether by Mossad hit squad, B-52 bunker buster, Nuke or military coup etc. In doing so the Iraqi people (and their children etc) will, allmost certainly, get a better standard of life and that should be celebrated."

If any of the Iraqi people manage to survive attacks by "bunker buster, Nuke or military coup", their quality of life will not, I suspect, be enhanced by living in an occupied country.

"The members of the left, of which this board has more than few, will howl at this view - but the best thing about it is that YOU DON'T MATTER. Put 1m people on the street of washington to protest, if you can, you are still totally irrelevant."

If our views are totally irrelevant, why do you take the time out of your busy life to try and debunk them?

[hr]"Life is a horizontal fall"

[nuke'em all]

[s]Al wrote on 09:47, 4th Jan 2003:
All that "liberal, useful-idiot(?) bullshit" like respect for human rights, democracy and freedom?

Useful idiots is what the late, unlamented Stalin described his western supporters. What I would call liberal useful-idiot bullshit is the idea that democracy and freedom will happen even if you do not fight for them. All democracies are born out of struggle and bloodshed Iraq will be no different.

So, if Bush or Blair were seen as being a threat to, say, Chinese interests then presumably the Chinese would have the right to try to overthrow or assassinate them?

Personally I struggle with it idea of anyone giving 'rights' to anyone or anything. However, from a chinse point of view, it would be logical for them to pursue such a policy if they thought that was best; there is no intellectual contradiction in understanding the logic of any such action, on the one hand, and forcefuly opposing them on the other if they conflict with your needs.

If any of the Iraqi people manage to survive attacks by "bunker buster, Nuke or military coup", their quality of life will not, I suspect, be enhanced by living in an occupied country.

Humm, lets think about the most famous example of US occupied country, Germany. Occupied for nearly 50 years, it was liberated from a disgusting regime and was then able to build a peacful, democractic and prosperous country. Personally,I am more and more inclined to the idea of UN/NATO given mandates of occupation for after the war.

If our views are totally irrelevant, why do you take the time out of your busy life to try and debunk them?

Not all lefties are dim, so it can be intellectually amusing to annoy them and stir a response. I just give thanks that their views are not in favour in the real world. :>

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Anyone that watched "Between Iraq and a hard place" will surely appreciate the historical precidents here.

It just goes to show Tony Blair is a fool and a lap dog of the US government that he is even *considering* going to war with Iraq - as if our troops could make a difference...

As they said "what we really want, is for Iraq to invade Northern Europe. Then our weapons might actually work."

[Al]

If, as you appear to be stating, liberals or "lefties" are supporters of Stalin/ism, then, by the same logic, right-wingers/conservatives are supporters of Hitler and fascism.

Oh, and it was only West Germany that was occupied by Western forces and only then until 1954. Not quite fifty years, is it? Unless you are suggesting that having military bases in a country is the same thing as occupying that country. In that case, the US has been an occupying power in the UK since WW2!

[hr]"Life is a horizontal fall"

[Prophet Tenebrae]

And the UK in Germany.

[Guest]

US Forces are in the UK by permission of Her Majesty's Government. Should the Government ever decide it would be better for them to go home, leaving us only our own inept armed forces to defend ourselves, the US would do so. US soldiers and airmen are not even allowed to carry weapons outside of their bases.

And another thing. Liberals say they care about human rights and the lot. What about the human rights of the Iraqi population? They have been ravaged by a mad dictator. Their best chance of getting a better life is American intervention.

[The_Farwall]

[s]Unregisted User wrote on 14:40, 7th Jan 2003:What about the human rights of the Iraqi population? They have been ravaged by a mad dictator. Their best chance of getting a better life is American intervention.


American intervention that consists (as it has for the past decade or so, and almost a century on the part of the British) of bombing them "back to the stoneage"? I pretty sure someone somewhere could come up with a better plan if the Iraqi peoples best chance of getting a better life really involves them going through a process in which they're really quite likely to die anyway.

[hr]
[s]I never really had a problem/ because of leaving
But everything reminds me of her/ this evening[/s]

[Guest]

Sometimes you must take 2 steps backwards in order to take 10 steps forward.

Saddam’s been given all the chances in the world to disarm. By choosing to ignore the UN security council’s warnings, filing the same weapons report they did in 1991, lying about having any weapons, hiding nuclear scientists in palaces so they cannot be interviewed, and hiding his weapons of mass destruction only solidifies his true intentions. Bush could have led his coalition into Iraq long ago but continued to give Saddam opportunities to come clean. Saddam’s violent past and continued defiance is well documented. I’m neither democrat nor republican but the liberals that continue to denounce any action against Iraq are now far beyond naive. The time for tolerance is coming to an end and so shall this cat and mouse game.

We would all agree the world would be a better place without Saddam’s regime, and soon it will be. Things have been set in motion and are far beyond any of our control. Its time to stand behind your nations leaders whether you agree with them or not, its your country, its your countrymen, show some patriotism and support for them.

[Al]

Where did this US respect for resolutions of the UN suddenly come from? If, and where the US is concerned it's a big if, you believe in international law then you have to uphold all UN resolutions and not just the ones targeted at your enemies. Israel is by far the worst offender when it comes to ignoring the UN.

"Its time to stand behind your nations leaders whether you agree with them or not, its your country, its your countrymen, show some patriotism and support for them."

No. Now, more than ever, is the time to speak out.

[hr]"Life is a horizontal fall"

[S.P.I.G]

"Outside of America Tony Blair seems to be the only person in the world that wants to go to war with Iraq"

I want to go to war with Iraq - I'm outside of America and I'm not Tony Blair

[Al]

S.P.I.G declares war on Iraq. You read it here first....

[hr]"Life is a horizontal fall"

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Regardless of what you think about the war - everyone should realise America has no staying power. In fact, it was America's inability to see things through that put us in this situation - and I wouldn't at all surprised if the same were true of Afghanistan in 12 years.

Let's just be glad that America didn't have such a short attention span during the second world war or we'd all be speaking German.

[Guest]

Someone made an earlier post stating liberals have a problem staying focused on the problem at hand. Al you proved that point, we aren’t talking about Israel, we aren’t talking about resolutions, we aren’t talking about the bong pipe you keep smoking from. We are talking about Iraq, its weapons of mass destruction, and the continuous games Saddam plays to hide them. How long do you want to give Saddam? Do you want to wait until he has a nuclear device aimed at your forehead? Oh, no wait, using your methodology, we would wait until he actually launched the device and killed us, and then retaliate… Oh wait we would be dead, we can’t retaliate. Frankly I never understood that point of view.

There is documented proof that they have certain weapons, at this point its common knowledge. The fact that Saddam keeps lying about them only exemplifies the type of person he really is and his true intentions. I really feel bad for you if you don’t have the common sense to put 2 and 2 together. The atrocities that Saddam has committed and the games he is currently playing should paint only one true picture. He needs to go.

[splittter]

[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 00:18, 10th Jan 2003:
Regardless of what you think about the war - everyone should realise America has no staying power.


Surely its america's all too long lasting obsession with supporting dodgy dictators all over the place, that then come back and bite them in the ass, that's got us in this mess ... not cleaning up after the gulf war was an arguably rubbish solution to a problem we'd already created ... or more accurately an extension of that same old policy, cause they gambled that saddam was better than the destabalisation in the region following an internal revolt ... they stick to things, they're consistently short sighted, self-obsessed and commited to empty waffle about 'making the world a better place' ... still at the moment they seem to be so in love with 'talking tough' there's a chance they might forget to actually do anything other than wander about after hans blix, mixing his metaphors for him.

[Al]

"Someone made an earlier post stating liberals have a problem staying focused on the problem at hand."

At least we know what the problem at hand is. For all their talk about Iraq disobeying the UN resolutions (and it is the US and UK who keep bringing this up) and getting rid of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, the real goal of the US is self-evident. That is why some people cannot support the war. Not because Saddam Hussein should be allowed to remain in power, but because allowing the US to use the name of the UN to legitimise its coups sets a very dangerous precedent.

"Al you proved that point, we aren’t talking about Israel"

No? I thought we were talking about a country in the Middle East that has a highly dubious record on human rights, has continually flouted international law and has one of the largest arsenals of weapons of mass destruction? If we weren't then I apologise for mentioning Israel.

"we aren’t talking about resolutions"

I thought we were. I thought we were talking about the present situation in Iraq. Oh well.

"we aren’t talking about the bong pipe you keep smoking from."

If anyone posting here has been smoking from a "bong pipe", it sure isn't me! Well, not recently.

"There is documented proof that they have certain weapons, at this point its common knowledge."

Maybe you should pass on this crucial information to the weapons inspectors. They seem to be struggling to find any weapons of mass destruction. Hang on, don't bother. There's no point because you don't know what you're talking about.

"The fact that Saddam keeps lying about them only exemplifies the type of person he really is and his true intentions"

Really? Would not all the wars he has started, the atrocities he has committed and the problems he has caused not be a better clue to the type of person he is and to his intentions? Look the evil, murderous, war-mongering tyrant keeps lying to us. Terrible.

[hr]"Life is a horizontal fall"