War With Iraq

[Andy_Bayley]

[s]Al wrote on 10:00, 3rd Apr 2003:
[i]"A raw deal"

What a unique way of putting it. To me, a "raw deal" suggests being ripped off in some way, paying for something and not getting it. It does not begin to cover what the "Americans" did to the Americans. Murder. Genocide. Destruction. Those are much better terms for it than "raw deal".[/i]

Great it happened a century ago, no one said it's right. It would be like you scotts hating the current UK government because of scotland being controlled by england in the middle ages.


But back to the war. Isn't it strange how a war of liberation turned so quickly into a war of conquest? What is with the US handing out contracts like there is no tomorrow. (By an amazing coincidence, many of the companies awarded lucrative contracts have close connections with the upper levels of the US administration. Who would have thought it?)

the pentagon plan was to have as much of the rebuilding as possible go through local Iraqi companies so I would like to see where your getting your information from on that. As for this being a war of liberation ask the celebrating Iraqis around the country If they are happy with the US being there.

Shouldn't reconstruction be the responsibility of the Iraqi people through the ballot box, or an interim civilian government? Let's face it, the Americans behaviour has all the character of imperialism except the one crucial aspect - knowing the people whom you are seeking to conquer and rule. Sorry, [i]liberate[/i]

It will much like Afghanistan was. Where are you figuring that we won't.

[Dr. Of Democracy]

[s]Unregisted User Buzzboy wrote on 06:59, 3rd Apr 2003:
I don't see what is so wrong with a belief in communism as a form of government. Ideally it is the best form of government, the problem is that it has (so far) never been truely practised in any country. Sure we've had Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism and Castroism. 'Communism' to many is a euphamism for ruthless dictatorship, when in fact communism should rely on the party not the leader. It is my belief that the Communist nations of China and Cuba would be significantly worse off if they were democracies as they would have been brought to heel under the burgeoning might of the US dollar, just as Russia has and be subject to vast corruption where the poor weren't cared for at all. Lets bear in mind that in the states the poorest sections of society are left to rot, people die because they cannot afford health insurance, if you are born poor you are destined for a life of social deprivation and gang crime and are liable to die young with a bullet in your back.{/i]

Communism is the utopian government unfortionately it will never work. Communism is fundamentally flawed and they quote the failed mantra that you used if your born poor you die poor. My father rose from the projects to a prominent business leader in the area. The reason most people stay poor is because of thier own actions. Granted are handout government has to do with that to but none the less from what I've seen of people the people who take responsibility for thier own actions have a much better chance of rising to success than the ones who blame others for thier problems.

I don't belive Saddam Hussien is right. I just believe that the US should try and get its house in order before trying to order others, the same is true for Britain.

Oh you mean that whole thing where your children are tortured if you speak out against our leader? Is that what we should get in order?Oh
wait we dont have that problem. Saddam does.

Bible Studying Bush Administration would do well to remember the christian saying:

" First take the plank out of thine own eye before taking the splinter out of another's"


The bible also says to help your fellow man. Those poor Iraqi civilians who have lived under tyranny for so long are our fellow man.

[Guest]

[s]Unregisted User Buzzboy wrote on 06:59, 3rd Apr 2003:
I don't see what is so wrong with a belief in communism as a form of government. Ideally it is the best form of government, the problem is that it has (so far) never been truely practised in any country.

And that says something right there. Communism is inherently flawed because it CANNOT be truly practiced. True communism assumes that no individual will ever act in his own self-interest, and that is unrealistic. True communism means everyone is required to believe in one way. Under democracy, people have the choice to live as liberterians if they choose, or as communists. I could go out and gather all my communist friends and start a commune if I wanted to anywhere in America- some people do do that- but you can't force everyone to do it- people have to choos. Communism will only work when every human on the planet voluntarily agrees to practice it.

Sure we've had Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism and Castroism. 'Communism' to many is a euphamism for ruthless dictatorship, when in fact communism should rely on the party not the leader.

How is that better? One party=one voice still. Not exactly a society conducive to original thought and new ideas.

It is my belief that the Communist nations of China and Cuba would be significantly worse off if they were democracies as they would have been brought to heel under the burgeoning might of the US dollar, just as Russia has and be subject to vast corruption where the poor weren't cared for at all.

I think you're wrong to make those satements. In fact, China isn't really communist anymore at all- they have a very capitalist (though still not democratic) government- and they made the transition to capitalism because communism wasn't feeding their poor. And while there are still russians who pine for the "good old days"- the vast majority do not miss soviet oppression. Life is improving there- it takes time to build a new economy.

Lets bear in mind that in the states the poorest sections of society are left to rot, people die because they cannot afford health insurance, if you are born poor you are destined for a life of social deprivation and gang crime and are liable to die young with a bullet in your back.

this is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on this board. Are there poor in America? yes. Do people die in america because of inadequate health care? yes. but that happens everywhere in the world. health care in a country of 300 million people is not as easy to provide as in a country like, say, Canada. the fact is, there are plenty of people born in to poverty who through hard work and education get out- my parents are perfect examples- both came from poor, rural families in the midwest and because they worked hard and saved their money, they are now firmly in the upper middle class, an dmy life has been alot easier than theirs was as a result. it's not the system that is broken- it is the values of the people and their willingness to make sacrifices. it disturbs me to see homeless people begging for money when there are "help wanted" signs all over town and driving through ghettos where i see kids wearing the latest $100 pair of tennis shoes while living on public welfare. it's all about values and understanding what is important and what should be important. people make their choices.[/i]

I don't belive Saddam Hussien is right. I just believe that the US should try and get its house in order before trying to order others, the same is true for Britain.

the problem with that statement is that there will ALWAYs be problems in society- humans are animals- and often we act as such. we will never obtain utopia within one country- utopia is a world wide objective. the US and Britain are so fdar ahead of countries like iraq in terms of human rights and technological and social advancement that it would be silly for us to coninue to develop while they stay stuck in the middle ages. That will only widen the gap between us, and make them resentt us even more. At some point we have to help the rest of the world catch up.

The Bible Studying Bush Administration would do well to remember the christian saying:

" First take the plank out of thine own eye before taking the splinter out of another's"


again, the problem here is that the west has the splinter in their eyes while most of the rest of the world has the plank in theirs. the west's problems are minor when compared to the rest of the world's.

[Prophet Tenebrae]

For the record - the reason that Russia is currently in the state it's in economically (somewhat glibbly) is a combination of corruption and incomptence.

Unlike somewhere like Poland which went into capitalism with a bite the bullet mentality, Russia was and is still messing about and is suffering for it - not at all aided by the Russian Mafia.

Cuba has massive poverty and China is in an economic state which could not even optimistically be called communism.

Besides, the flaws with communism go far deeper than it's false assumptions about human nature - there is something inherently inefficient having 10% of your workforce deciding what the other 90% should do...

[rivy]

'Daddy, Daddy! Please let me blow up the big bad man!? Please? Oh pretty please! Me want to play and then hide in big bunker'.
-----
Um? WHAT?! Putting words into President Bush's mouth is unfair and unintelligent. But hey, it must be nice to not have had your tongue ripped out for acting the same way you are in this self-righteous comment.

[Andy Bayley]

All of you people who dared argue with my intelect of what would happen in Iraq owe me a big apology.

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Why?

Also - they're saying that saddam joined failed dictators like Hitler and Stalin. How did Stalin fail?

[James Baster]

[s]Unregisted User Andy Bayley wrote on 19:07, 9th Apr 2003:
All of you people who dared argue with my intelect of what would happen in Iraq owe me a big apology.


Personally, I don't think they do yet. Baghdad has fallen but all the regimes leaders seems to have vanished, theres widespread looting, lack of food and water and concerns about the future government. Theres a long way to go yet before anyone can start gloating. Maybe in a year or two you can come back and gloat.


[hr]
[s]Come Robin. We shall leave. Through the window. Inconspicuously ... Using our batropes.[/s]

[Gatty Scumbelina]

[s]James Baster wrote on 22:43, 9th Apr 2003:
[s]Unregisted User Andy Bayley wrote on 19:07, 9th Apr 2003:[i]
All of you people who dared argue with my intelect of what would happen in Iraq owe me a big apology.


Personally, I don't think they do yet. Baghdad has fallen but all the regimes leaders seems to have vanished, theres widespread looting, lack of food and water and concerns about the future government. Theres a long way to go yet before anyone can start gloating. Maybe in a year or two you can come back and gloat.

[/i]

Just channel hopped past 'Newsnight', which pointed out that Iraq is the Middle East's Yugoslavia; Sunnis, Shi'ites, Marsh Arabs, Kurds etc etc. Yugoslavia's civil wars started after they lost their dictator...

[The_Farwall]

Plus Saddam-loyal forces still hold 2-3 significant Northern cities.
It's not over yet.
Also, what did the ego-tastic Mr Bayley actually say that everyone's supposed to have dissagreed with? I don't think anyone doubted the likely hood of the allies winning.
[hr][s]"Don't take any wooden nickels when you sell your soul."[/s]

[Wong]

So how many times have you seen the statue fall so far?

To the nearest hundred would be fine.

[hr]And I see the lies and I hear the cries
And the marching of the people
As they go to war, Heaven knows what for
God, I think I've had enough now

[Prophet Tenebrae]

I still want to know how Stalin was a failed dictator... and on that same note - don't the Saddam statues bear something of a resemblance to the Stalin ones in composition? Is there some dictator statue workshop somewhere that churns them out - if so, how long until Tony's batch is done?

[The_Farwall]

[s]Wong wrote on 23:11, 9th Apr 2003:
So how many times have you seen the statue fall so far?

To the nearest hundred would be fine.

I watched it two or three times and, was it just me, or did everybody else it looked like it was made of plastic too?
[hr][s]"Don't take any wooden nickels when you sell your soul."[/s]

[Prophet Tenebrae]

I thought it was a giant pinnatta and they were smashing it to get the candy out.

[The_Farwall]

[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 00:52, 10th Apr 2003:
I thought it was a giant pinnatta and they were smashing it to get the candy out.

Despite the fact that it wasn't shaped like a donkey, wasn't made of wicker work, wasn't suspended from anything and wasn't being hit with sticks?
Right you are there, Mr Tenebrae.
[hr][s]"Don't take any wooden nickels when you sell your soul."[/s]

[munchingfoo]

It did look like plastic, not to mention the fact that the head fell of, meaning that it probably wasn't cast iron.

It did also look like stalin, there must be a factory, have to get me some of those.

I can imagine my plastic stalin like statue standing outside my fife park mansion. Telling others in the area to do as i say or they'll live in fear of being electricuted at the nipples.

I can only dream....

[hr]Management: The art of writing like you know what you're talking about and making others believe it.

(munchingfoo comprehensive dictionary)

[rhodesia84]

It was very nice to see that statue topple today. The news folks made the obvious comparison to the fall of the Berlin Wall, which actually made me somewhat sad.

The fall of the Berlin Wall was over 10 years ago, and we still have people who pretend it never happened and that socialism/communism/statism/fascism is a good and viable form of government.

But I guess naïve people will always exist.

[Dee]

Seeing that statue fall was beautiful -even if it did look like it was made of plastic.

Hopefully things are now at a stage where even Sa'id al-Sahhaf would be struggling to suggest the Coalition are losing the war.

I don't mind if Robert Fisk, et al, continue to peddle predictions of doom though. I'm just happy to see the liberation of the people really happening. Even if you didn't approve of the war, it's surely a wonderful sight to see a people freed from such a brutal dictator.

I've never been a big military fan (in a cadet corps when younger :shudder:), but I also can't help feeling admiration at the job our soldiers did, and, silly as it sounds even to my ear, a small amount of patriotism. I'm also having to force myself to admit our PM can occasionally get things right. This is not a easy thing.

I agree that it's not done yet, and it remains to be seen whether Blair and Bush live up to all their promises, help to rebuild Iraq, and set up a truly democratic government in place of Sadaam's regime. Given how things have gone so far though, I believe they will go the whole way.

Here's hoping they continue meeting, and exceeding, expectations.

[The_Farwall]

I have to say, the Iraqi information minister has to be my all time favourite character in international politics.
His daily announcements of "War? What war, we killed them all yesterday. Again." and words to similar, and increasingly ridiculous, effect have been one of the funniest things on TV in the last 3 weeks.
Second only to the American Military advisor that News24 interviewed yesterday, Mr Randy Gangle. I kid you not.
[hr][s]"Don't take any wooden nickels when you sell your soul."[/s]

[Guest]

Oh..... its the Liberals backpedaling.

It must really disturb the Liberals to see the Iraqi citizens celebrating their liberation in the streets, and giving our troops flowers.