When I was 11

[Gealle]

Yet another reason why breeding licences are a good idea.

Who's for that then?

[Steveo]

A completely middle class society (keep the upper class as well).

That's my dream. Anyone have any suggestions how we might go about eliminating social detritus?

[hr]

Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

[M249]

This sort of thing happens more frequently in the working classes as they are poorer and cannot afford any other entertainment

[Guest]

Dont forget the pre teen heroine addict in Glasgow.

I seriously believe that these people are almost seeking ways to speed up the inevitable conclusion to an existence only justified by hedonism. They are gonna be brown bread by 40.

Smoking, drinking, sex and drugs from age 10 until death. Eating greasy fish and chips, fatty foods and not looking after their own health.

Is this the natural order? Will there always be an underclass? (I know the easy answer is yes, by definition there will always be an underclass)

[Si]

That's my dream. Anyone have any suggestions how we might go about eliminating social detritus?

Carpet bombing Glasgow would be a good start.

[novium]

The world record, I believe, is 5. Back in the 30s i think. No mention was made of the sick bastard who raped a 4 year old.

Quoting maz from 18:03, 12th May 2006
If you look at the pictures in the sun it is easy to see that this girl is fairly developed for a 12 year old. She's taller than her mum, and as far as I can tell, she's not a gangly little girl. So its not so crazy that she would be able to get pregnant. I think they found an 8 year old a few years ago, in somewhere like mexico who had a baby. Its probably not healthy for a still developing body to be going through all those hormonal changes.

And her mother says she has nightmares about labour, and she's going to be there to look after her little girl. She should have been looking after her little girl in the first place. Not that I'm all for mollycoddling, I think in a lot of cases being over protective is a bad thing as the child just rebels. There's no need to be walking a 12 year old to school. That kind of thing leads to bullying.

Oh and Duncan - I don't remember a 13 year old being pregnant, was this after my time? Definately quite a few 4th years, but I don't remember a 2nd year ever being pregnant. And I'm a gossip queen!

[hr]

Well, I bet that you look good on the dancefloor

Go see my friend on his band's UK tour. 24 March - 7 April
http://www.thehint.com

[hr]

sed tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[novium]

Oh, leave duncan alone. He was being over the top, so of course I don't agree with him, but please.The article made it quite clear to me that drinking, smoking, and partying are all quite normal for the girl. And it was *statutory* rape. So come on, get down off that high horse.

Quoting Lodestone from 18:29, 12th May 2006

Mutilation as a punishment issued to minors? Little harsh. Surely the girl is just as guilty?

Or more so, according to dunqn.

I can;t believe how quick people can be to pass moral sentence on the basis of a piece of journ alism. We don't know the details; we don't know who's "to blame".

[hr]

sed tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[novium]

Age of consent has come up several times on this thread- and I just had an odd thought. So when people learn about ancient rome, with its age of consent for girls being 12 (in the sense of being old enough to officially 'consent' to marriage), there is shock, and sort of "how terrible, how uncivilized". But it seems to me that in developed countries, the legal standard for consent as well as the age it is considered acceptable is dropping dramatically back down towards those levels which we'd usually think of characterizing third world countries. It's just strange.

[hr]

sed tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[Lodestone]

dunqn,

Oh for fuck's sake, stop being such a pansy bleeding heart liberal wanker. It's hardly "nasty shit" - ever read StormFront? I'm merely throwing blatantly over-the-top suggestions for a rise out of easily provoked individuals such as yourself.

You know what? I don't believe that at all. I think you actually do believe what you're saying. But if you don't, and you were just trying to get a rise, then tell me that you don't believe that the man has no blame to bear over pregnancy, that you don't stereotype into submission everyone without the fortune to be born middle-class or better, that you do think that better sex education in schools will further improve what is already a more sexually healthy and aware society than ever before.

Because if you do believe some of the shit you've been spouting, I'm-- dumbfounded. It's so stereotypically awful Tory moral reactionary and sexually repressed middle-class nerd.

And if you don't believe it, what the hell kind of ground do you stand on over, say, duckgirl?

AI,

But you are making assumptions about the boy. All you know is that he is 15. You know nothing about him beyond that. He may be on the "cusp of adulthood" legally (although I'd suggest that 3 years is a fairly large cusp) but what about mentally or emotionally?

OK, that's making a small implicit assumption--that at 15 he's going to be far more sexually aware than an 11-year-old. But I'm at least going by psychological probability here, and he's nearly legally competent (16) to make such decisions too.

11 year olds that smoke 20 cigarettes a day and go out drinking in the city?
It doesn't sound right to me, I thought we were in a more advanced society than that, one where we protect our children from that sort of thing.

We do live in a much more advanced society than, say, Dickens's. I think actually thinking about some of the children in Oliver Twist is a really good exercise here--Nancy, the prostitute at 14, and an army of pickpocketers. And they weren't extreme cases, like this girl, but rather archetypes.

But you've clearly led a very sheltered life if you're surprised that this stuff happens. Glasgow's poorer areas, for example, are some of the most economically deprived in Western Europe--there is serious poverty there, with all of the social problems that leads to in a Western-style city. Children there, or in the poorest parts of Edinburgh, are growing up in shit. But they're doing far better than they have been before--the stats know it, and there are a lot of good schemes out there responsible.

I've worked with "problem youth" myself, and my sister's in the social in West Lothian working with exactly the kind of children you'd be expecting to get in the kind of mess this girl is in. And, believe me, I know, they're little shits--they're really terrible people. But I know why they're like that--because they've never really been offered the incentive, and precious little opportunity, to be anything else, and I also know that there's a willingness from a surprising number to get out of it.

Haunted, dunqn--

"Bleeding-heart liberal"? I don't even see why you're applying that label. Just because I show sympathy? I've offered no political position on the problem, save calling for more sex education--but I'm chastising those of you with such unrealistic, objectionable and utterly unprofitable attitudes towards this kind of thing.

That goes for a lot of the rest of you as well. I hate this nu-snobbery we're drowning in, where "carpet-bombing Glasgow", "eliminating social detritus", "these people" and all the jokes attached have become so allowable. Yes, I know you're being over-the-top--but actually, I'm seeing the attitude more and more internalised. It started as a joke, but it's getting nastier and nastier.

[Fozzy Bear]

Quoting Steveo from 02:56, 13th May 2006
A completely middle class society (keep the upper class as well).

That's my dream. Anyone have any suggestions how we might go about eliminating social detritus?

[hr]

Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

except that would never work. apart from, "who would do the actual work?" as soon as you remove the "lower" classes from society, then you create a new sub-section in your middle class out of the people lowest in it. where do you draw the line at "middle class" and determine who is slightly too poor to be in your "new world order"?

[hr]

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality through not dying." - Woody Allen

[Senethro]

ROBOTS! WE MUST INVENT ROBOTS TO DO ALL THE WORK!

Duggeh, what do we need to research Industrial Automation(B3)?

[Bitterandtwisted]

Quoting Senethro from 10:34, 13th May 2006
ROBOTS! WE MUST INVENT ROBOTS TO DO ALL THE WORK!

Duggeh, what do we need to research Industrial Automation(B3)?

Then they rebel and kill us.

Hmm, much like these "lower classes" my chaufer's caddie was telling me about.

[hr]

Look at that. Look at that. "Accident Blackspot"? These aren't accidents. They're throwing themselves into the road gladly. Throwing themselves into the road to escape all this hideousness. Throw yourself into the road, darling - you haven't got a chance.

[Colin]

Quoting Colleen from 23:44, 12th May 2006
My sex education took place in my RE classes. I was told the following things:

1. Sex before marriage is wrong.
2. Abortion is wrong.
3. Contraceptives are very very wrong.
4. If, in a healthy marriage, you would like to prevent having children, here is how the rhythm method works...

Grrr. Summed up very nicely, the whole stupidity of Catholic teaching on the matter. The emphasis is on 3, whereas 3 only makes sense if you are going to obey number 1, which is the more important point religiously. If you are going to break rule 1, why not break the lesser rule 3 too, and avoid the possibility of having to consider your stance on rule 2.

[Senethro]

Offski

[Mod]

I'll repost this later when i've had time to review it.

[Steveo]

Just a quick jolt back to reality for all of you here placing your faith in the absolute truth and value of the legal system. I am of course reffering to the idea that this girl, 11, was unable to give any consent. People have been saying she can't, the law saus she's under 13 etc etc.

This is a legal system that sees it fit to allow nine Afghans, who hijacked a plane to Britain, asylum in the UK (bloody Human Rights Act needs scrapped).

Blind faith in the law isn't necessarily a good thing.

[hr]

Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

[LeopardSkinQueen]

Quoting Steveo from 12:56, 13th May 2006
This is a legal system that sees it fit to allow nine Afghans, who hijacked a plane to Britain, asylum in the UK (bloody Human Rights Act needs scrapped).

Blind faith in the law isn't necessarily a good thing.

Criticism of one area of the law doesn't negate another. That's a bad argument.

I think in the area of consent the law is right, for what it is worth. Especially if she was drunk - many people would argue that having sex with someone who is too drunk qualifies as rape regardless of their age.

Edited for a typo
[hr]

Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew
Come out and round up everyone that knows more than they do
http://tweeasfuck.livejournal.com

[Steveo]

I was careful not to state that, merely draw attention to the fact the law isn't 100% perfect.

[hr]

Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

[LeopardSkinQueen]

We're taking this part of the law in isolation, however. Have you any legitimate evidence, using psychological studies, for example, to show that this point of law is demonstratably wrong?

[hr]

Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew
Come out and round up everyone that knows more than they do
http://tweeasfuck.livejournal.com

[Colleen]

Quoting Steveo from 12:56, 13th May 2006
This is a legal system that sees it fit to allow nine Afghans, who hijacked a plane to Britain, asylum in the UK (bloody Human Rights Act needs scrapped).

Blind faith in the law isn't necessarily a good thing.

[hr]

At the time of offence, so I believe, this action was not illegal as no one was hurt. As such, they broke no laws. The law cannot be applied retrospectively. Nor, while I'm on the subject, does the executive have the right to try and overturn the judiciary's decision. The rule of law, anyone?

Blind faith in the law is not a good thing. It should be observed constantly, in case we, the ruled, grow lax. And the Human Rights Act is a good idea. Personally, I rather like the idea that we finally have a court in Britain to protect our human rights rather than go to the European court for it.

I think, though, having a law to protect 11 year olds from having sex with someone four years older than them because they're drunk is definitely a good idea. My sisters *fifteen* and I'd probably still go for a nineteen year old who had sex with her while she was drunk.