Recognition of Paganism

[exnihilo]

Indeed. It hasn't been an exclusively Christian building in decades and we've not been a Christian university for centuries. I'm surprised by your position on this especially with respect to muslims using the building, never mind pagans. Who else would you ban, tintin?

[tintin]

Quoting exnihilo from 00:16, 20th Jun 2006
Indeed. It hasn't been an exclusively Christian building in decades and we've not been a Christian university for centuries. I'm surprised by your position on this especially with respect to muslims using the building, never mind pagans. Who else would you ban, tintin?

Maybe you know more than me about the history of the University, but if we're not a Christian University then why do we say Christian prayers at things like Graduations and so on?

I'm anti other faiths using the building because quite frankly Christianity in this country gets enough of a kicking as it is. I live in Aberdeen and every day see Churches converted into nightclubs and pubs - surely the ultimate irony? What really upsets me is that there is one place called Slain's Castle which advertises things like tarot readings and occultist practices. I don't like walking past it and having that sort of thing shoved in my face.

This is a nominally Christian country. In moslem countries, such as the one I grew up in, practicing the Christian faith was pretty much frowned upon at best: the only villages in the country without running water and medical facilities just so happened to be Christian. Funny that. There is absolutely no freedom of religious expression unless you are moslem. And it's the same with most Islamic countries - Christianity is just not tolerated. So if moslems want a building to worship in or meet in then build your own, but don't take over the Christian ones, please.

[exnihilo]

We say Christian prayers at university functions because we're a traditional kind of place and we always have - when I said we were not a Christian university I meant that at no point in centuries has the university population been exclusively Christian, it is extremely varied, more so now than ever.

Churches are being converted into nightclubs because the majority of people in Britain no longer profess any faith at all and the buildings are now serving another use - surely preferable to demolition? You don't like having tarot reading adverts "shoved in your face"? Perhaps other people aren't too keen on being shouted at in the street for their many "sins" either.

This is a nominally Christian country, perhaps, but as I have said the majority no longer profess a faith and there are as many practicing muslims as there are active members of the C of E. What you seem to be suggesting is that because some small number of Christians get a raw deal in the Middle East it's ok, nay desirable, tha muslims should get a raw deal in Britain - which is, frankly, contemptible.

Nobody is "taking over" anything, the Chaplaincy Building (which should be renamed) is a multi-purpose meeting room for student groups of all kinds to use, it's not "holy ground" and it's not exlusively Christian. If it were exclusively Christian I doubt the university would consider the scant use it would get to be worth maintaining it.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see muslims, the LGBT, pagans, whoever, making use of the building to be Christianity "getting a kicking", I see it more as an example of toleration and co-existence which is to be lauded. If Christianity has lost its popularity, that's just too bad, but this is something that you seem to have blown out of all proportion and your attitude towards non-Christian groups is - like that of so many of your co-religionists - distinctly un-Christ like.

[Captain_Spanky]

Quoting tintin from 06:04, 20th Jun 2006

Quoting exnihilo from 00:16, 20th Jun 2006

I'm anti other faiths using the building because quite frankly Christianity in this country gets enough of a kicking as it is. I live in Aberdeen and every day see Churches converted into nightclubs and pubs - surely the ultimate irony? What really upsets me is that there is one place called Slain's Castle which advertises things like tarot readings and occultist practices. I don't like walking past it and having that sort of thing shoved in my face.

An advert is hardly "shoving it in your face", especially considering it's a p[rinted advert and not even a pop up window or such. Did you ever consider that the reason christianity gets such a bad rap is because people are sick of ignorant, reactionary dipshits such as yourself not having the ability to look beyond their own beliefs?

[hr]

Beatrice - Darling. Dearest. Dead.

[Bitterandtwisted]

Quoting tintin from 06:04, 20th Jun 2006


I'm anti other faiths using the building because quite frankly Christianity in this country gets enough of a kicking as it is. I live in Aberdeen and every day see Churches converted into nightclubs and pubs - surely the ultimate irony? What really upsets me is that there is one place called Slain's Castle which advertises things like tarot readings and occultist practices. I don't like walking past it and having that sort of thing shoved in my face.

Supply and demand, dude. These days, more people like to spend all their cash on a night out than on their superstitions. The Aberdeen churches make very good bars, and it's better than those good buildings going to waste. Tempora mutantur et nos mutamur in illis, as they say.

[hr]

Look at that. Look at that. "Accident Blackspot"? These aren't accidents. They're throwing themselves into the road gladly. Throwing themselves into the road to escape all this hideousness. Throw yourself into the road, darling - you haven't got a chance.

[novium]

I am not being obtuse, I was being serious. Although no, they haven't been worshipped longer..at least not the deities think of being pagan...even the classical gods were not the same gods from century to century. Look at Isis, for example.

they fit with the year? who does? what makes christianity bullshit compared to the other excuses?

they celebrate sex? once again, who does? I can't think of any ancient society that was completely open about sex. free love and all that. For let's face it, sex has consequences, be they STDs or babies. So anything along those lines would be modern, and not ancient, wouldn't it?

look, i am bored here so I am being a pain in the ass, but what else is the sinner for?

Quoting Midget from 10:33, 19th Jun 2006

Quoting novium from 06:43, 19th Jun 2006
why is that?

Quoting Setsuna from 04:12, 19th Jun 2006

I am an atheist, but in some ways paganism makes more sense to me than Christianity...

Novium don't be obtuse, the ancient gods are of course superior.
a) They've been worshipped longer.
b) They fit with the year, the four major festivals make sense, the Christian merely copy them and add some bullshit about someone being born and resurrected.
c) They celebrate sex, there's nothing wrong with sex or nudity, its nothing to be ashamed of.
d) Its happier, look at Howie in the Wicker Man, so dour compsred to the jolly locals he deserves to die.

[hr]

IMAGE:img9.imgspot.com/u/04/241/18/160019.jpg "Little!"
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100090

[hr]

sed tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[novium]

If I go to rome, and go to the pantheon and say a few prayers to Minerva, does that make me a classical pagan, reclaiming what once was mine? No, of course not. Hell, I could do whole sacrifices, perfect to the last detail, and it still wouldn't make me an ancient pagan. The people whose religion that actually was have long since gone to dust; we can 'reconstruct' the past, but it will not really be the past, it will be a reflection of ourselves.
So you'll have to explain to me the whole "operating longer" thing.

Quoting Al from 22:49, 19th Jun 2006
" Please don't shove us out of our own place and town that we've been in far longer than ,you."

Given that most Christian settlements were founded on pagan sites, there is every chance that pagans have been operating in St Andrews far longer than Christians.

[hr]

sed tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[exnihilo]

As an aside, that's one thing that annoys me about so many pagans - the claim to be perpetuating millenia old beliefs when in actual fact they've made a new one out of the bits and bods we know of the old ones. I have no problem with someone having a new belief system, I just don't like them passing it off as legitimately ancient.

[Chain Mailer]

You're going to get the typical minority of snobby practicioners, who think 'their religion is far superior to all others' no matter what their religion is based on. The pagan society has been toddling along for quite a while and now, suddenly, just because they can use some old building they're seen as the 2nd coming of the antichrist
It's great that such talks can be discussed with such ludicrus passion on the sinner

[hr]

Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious

[Rufus]

Quoting novium from 08:44, 20th Jun 2006
If I go to rome, and go to the pantheon and say a few prayers to Minerva, does that make me a classical pagan, reclaiming what once was mine? No, of course not. Hell, I could do whole sacrifices, perfect to the last detail, and it still wouldn't make me an ancient pagan. The people whose religion that actually was have long since gone to dust; we can 'reconstruct' the past, but it will not really be the past, it will be a reflection of ourselves.
So you'll have to explain to me the whole "operating longer" thing.

Quoting Al from 22:49, 19th Jun 2006
" Please don't shove us out of our own place and town that we've been in far longer than ,you."

Given that most Christian settlements were founded on pagan sites, there is every chance that pagans have been operating in St Andrews far longer than Christians.

[hr]

sed tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

I've just woken up, so forgive me if I'm misinterpreting your post.

Doesn't St Andrews' previous mantle of Kilrymont rather prove Al's point?

Followers of the old ways never quite die out, and whilst that obviously makes one a modern-day descendant of an ancient pagan, one's still a pagan for all that.

[Rufus]

Quoting Rufus from 09:26, 20th Jun 2006

Quoting novium from 08:44, 20th Jun 2006
The people whose religion that actually was have long since gone to dust; we can 'reconstruct' the past, but it will not really be the past, it will be a reflection of ourselves.

You have a future as a spiritual guru with that mellifluous wording!

[grousefanatic]

Quoting exnihilo from 08:48, 20th Jun 2006
As an aside, that's one thing that annoys me about so many pagans - the claim to be perpetuating millenia old beliefs when in actual fact they've made a new one out of the bits and bods we know of the old ones. I have no problem with someone having a new belief system, I just don't like them passing it off as legitimately ancient.

I think one of the problems that has caused this is the confusion between the traditional defintion of the word "pagan" and the lumping together of the many different practices under the same title of "Paganism", even though they don't follow the same structure, belief patterns etc.

[hr]

veni vidi nates calce concidi - i came, i saw, i kicked ass

[exnihilo]

Quoting Rufus from 09:26, 20th Jun 2006
Doesn't St Andrews' previous mantle of Kilrymont rather prove Al's point?

It was Christian when it was Kilrymont too, I'm not aware of any earlier evidence of St Andrews as a site of worship. Broadly, I suppose all of the UK had pre-Christian beliefs at some point, but that's not quite the same. As for being descendants, not really, more reinventors, there's no continuity from pre-Christian times to now, there is a 1,500 year gap and a total absence of any sort of written record, so you'd basically have to be making it up. If not, there are historians all round the world who would love to hear from you...

[emma]

[/quote]

Novium don't be obtuse, the ancient gods are of course superior.
a) They've been worshipped longer.
b) They fit with the year, the four major festivals make sense, the Christian merely copy them and add some bullshit about someone being born and resurrected.
c) They celebrate sex, there's nothing wrong with sex or nudity, its nothing to be ashamed of.
d) Its happier, look at Howie in the Wicker Man, so dour compsred to the jolly locals he deserves to die.

[hr]

IMAGE:img9.imgspot.com/u/04/241/18/160019.jpg "Little!"
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100090[/quote]

a) Not necessarily. The Bible goes all the way back to creation. It's true that they have be worshiping longer in britain, but the Bible isn't really set in britain

b) It's true they took the festival times, but whether or not you believe Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is a historical figure, and most of the "bullshit" actually happened!

c) Christians celebrate sex - they just call it marriage!

d) 'Happier' is a relative term. I know christians who are really happy, and pagans who are quite depressed. Depends who you meet!

btw I'm not a christian, nor a pagan. I just think everyone should believe what they want!

[Rufus]

Quoting exnihilo from 09:48, 20th Jun 2006

Quoting Rufus from 09:26, 20th Jun 2006
Doesn't St Andrews' previous mantle of Kilrymont rather prove Al's point?

It was Christian when it was Kilrymont too, I'm not aware of any earlier evidence of St Andrews as a site of worship. Broadly, I suppose all of the UK had pre-Christian beliefs at some point, but that's not quite the same. As for being descendants, not really, more reinventors, there's no continuity from pre-Christian times to now, there is a 1,500 year gap and a total absence of any sort of written record, so you'd basically have to be making it up. If not, there are historians all round the world who would love to hear from you...

I feel almost honoured to be patronised by you

St Andrews was thought to be a Pictish stronghold prior to the 6th century, no? I should have said Muckross rather than Kilrymont but chose the latter not thinking the etymological meaning of it would be, er, noticed.

As for my comment about old beliefs travelling through the ages, down the generations, perhaps it's a tad romanticised but I like to think it has happened...and yes, I believe in fairies.

[exnihilo]

Patronised?

[Midget]

Quoting emma from 13:39, 19th Jun 2006

c) Christians celebrate sex - they just call it marriage!

You are joking. Christians though not Christ ironically have been condemning sex for ages, have you heard of Paul?

[hr]

IMAGE:img9.imgspot.com/u/04/241/18/160019.jpg "Little!"
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100090

[Rufus]

Much as it pains me to use emoticons [21st century equivalent of passing loud and fragrant wind in public] I placed one there in an attempt to convey the light-hearted tone in which I typed it.

[exnihilo]

Ah, I see.

[tintin]

Exnihilo - I've just read your reply to my post [see above etc] and I accept what you are saying, and take those points on board. Perhaps I did get slightly the wrong end of the stick about the Pagans using the Chaplaincy. But this debate does raise some relevant points, though, as we have seen.