Immigrants

[Batman]

First off i am not a xenophile.

But looking at local news i discovered that Caley Thistle are starting to advertise matches in both Polish and English.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scot ... 296064.stm

I am not against foreign nationals coming over to britain to earn a living. But for us to bend over to their culture in our country i think that is wrong.

Similar why is taxpayers money being spent of offering local council services in foreign languages. For example in central london they offer services in bengali and various indian dialects. But why can't people there just learn english. And do it in that.

I am not against them from using their native language, its just that british services should be offered in English. And purley english.

WHen ever i go and visit family overseas i always make a point to converse in the local language first.

Remember when in rome.


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Have you ever danced with the Devil in the Pale Moonlight!

[Icarus]

I love it when people start a statement with little disclaimers like 'first off I'm not a xenophile, but...' You always know something entertaining is going to follow.

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[Al]

Quoting Batman from 22:52, 29th Aug 2006
First off i am not a xenophile.

I think you mean xenophobe.

But looking at local news i discovered that Caley Thistle are starting to advertise matches in both Polish and English.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scot ... 296064.stm

I am not against foreign nationals coming over to britain to earn a living. But for us to bend over to their culture in our country i think that is wrong.

Putting adverts in a language spoken by many newcomers is hardly bending over backwards to their culture. Is there any evidence that they are refusing to learn English? Is there any indication that this policy extends beyond the football club?

Similar why is taxpayers money being spent of offering local council services in foreign languages. For example in central london they offer services in bengali and various indian dialects. But why can't people there just learn english. And do it in that.

It depends on your definition of a foreign language. Can a language spoken by a large number of native born Britons really be considered a foreign language? In the case of immigrants, most will speak English but perhaps not to a level where they could readily access services.

I am not against them from using their native language, its just that british services should be offered in English. And purley english.

I'd imagine that Welsh speakers might have something to say about that. And - to a lesser extent - speakers of Gaelic. English isn't the only "British" language, you know.

WHen ever i go and visit family overseas i always make a point to converse in the local language first.

You might. Many do not. I am sure there are countless British emigrants to Spain who make no effort to learn Spanish. And, no doubt, there are other countries where the same is true.

[Haunted]

There is nothing xenophobic at all about what your saying Batman.

I'd like to see measurements put in place (like the Dutch have) to make sure that all who emigrate to the UK can speak a high level of English before they arrive.

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Now with 100% more corn

[Senethro]

Haunted, your posts have previously expressed xenophobic ideas.

[Haunted]

Quoting Senethro from 23:55, 29th Aug 2006
Haunted, your posts have previously expressed xenophobic ideas.

So?
I've said alot of things on the sinner

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Now with 100% more corn

[Al]

I'd sooner see people born in this country achieve a high level of English before I worried about the attainment levels of immigrants. There are an awful lot of people in this country - on this board even - who are in no position to make any demands over the required English skills in others.

[Malcolm]

Quoting Al from 00:27, 30th Aug 2006
I'd sooner see people born in this country achieve a high level of English before I worried about the attainment levels of immigrants. There are an awful lot of people in this country - on this board even - who are in no position to make any demands over the required English skills in others.

That is very true indeed. Too many British people lack basic language-oriented skills IMHO.

There was a book out called "Classroom Clangers", with funny pieces of mistakes in schoolwork, parents' letters etc., and a woman wrote in complaining about her sprog reading Shakespeare. I can't find the book itself, but it went something along the lines of:

"Deer teacher i dont see why my girl shoold learn shackspear i mean she ouht to lern proper british first"

(The woman was from Shropshire, I believe)

QED.

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" ... No-one knows what it's like, to be the bad man, to be the sad man, Behind Blue Eyes ... "

[Rufus]

Quoting Batman from 22:52, 29th Aug 2006
I am not against them from using their native language, its just that british services should be offered in English. And purley english.


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Have you ever danced with the Devil in the Pale Moonlight!

Ah, ahahaha. Ah.

[Odysseus]

Since when has trying to make someone feel welcome been 'bending over backwards'? Scotland NEEDS more economic migrants to underpin our economny. In this instance, it is a case of ICT trying to broaden their support by making more people feel welcome. I can't believe any right minded person would object to this.

Good on Caley Thistle I say!

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Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Malcolm]

Quoting Rufus from 00:52, 30th Aug 2006
And purley english.

One Surrey town has a whole new language? Woo! The Revolution has begun!1

On the whole Polish issue, I saw on the news that some things in Aberdeen are now bilingual in Polish, because there's an ever increasing Polish population up there (not sure why, TBH - could be to do with fishing or the oil platforms). Although this doesn't really explain the Polish ICT advert.

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" ... No-one knows what it's like, to be the bad man, to be the sad man, Behind Blue Eyes ... "

[househunter]

"U no wat rly gets me about dem dam imagants is how they cant spek da langwage!"

[Jono]

Councils wasting taxpayers money eh? local councils waste millions every year on pointless projects, and you're complaining about one that just might have some discernable public benefit.

But I agree with you. After all it's such an inconvenience, these translations you don't need to read appearing in some foreign language that you don't understand. It's such a hassel having to decipher which block of text is in your native script, as opposed to the one in some incomprehenseble foreign alphabet. Something has to be done about it!!!

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[mdave]

Football, as far as I can tell, is NOT a British service. It's a service provided privately by the participating clubs. If Caley Thistle finds that a large number of its potential supporters speak Polish, they'd be fools NOT to advertise in Polish. Fair play to them... it's good business, plain and simple.

That's the case on the relatively simple level of how a particular private enterprise chooses to respond to its environment. The underlying question of what the British government ought to be doing or not doing about this state of affairs is an entirely different question.

This general question, in case anyone hasn't noticed, is currently at the center a tremendous political debate here in the USA, where people are up in arms over illegal Mexican immigration and the side-by-side use of Spanish and English in public and private services (education especially). Entirely foreseeable result of free trade, free movement of labor, and radical differences in standard of living if you ask me (just as it is in Britain). But that still leaves open the question of what ought to be done, and I'm personally still trying to work that one out.

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"It is history which teaches us to hope" --R. Edward Lee

[Lid]

Disclaimer: I am a Europhobic, but contrary, I'm a Commonweathaphile, should such a word exist.

Firstly, Gaelic and Welsh are considered minority languages, manifested that if you ring 112 in an emergency and say the name of the language in that language, you'll automatically be transferred to a speaker of that language in BT Tower. Be that Andorran or Gallic.

I'm torn. I work in a pub that is surrounded by cheap housing that the government bought up about 2 years ago to house immigrant families awaiting places in the council housing schemes, and those 'unlikely' to disappear that were awaiting immigration decisions.
We have quite a lot of English patrons who show high levels of animosity towards these foreign migrants. As much as I feel they should be embracing multiculturalism, I still show sympathy. Especially when some of our patrons have shown as little grasp of the English language but to point at the Smirnoff bottle. However, should I go to Greece, I'd probably do something similar, holding up 2 digits to indicate quantity and saying Ouzo.

Cultural integration is something different. When told it was closing time, two of our Russian patrons who were obviously worse for wear and begrudging of leaving uttered to one of our staff members "I get men, they fuck you, you do nothing".

I think it's not as much the fact they have no grasp of our language that they have no idea how our society works that is the problem. I walk past about 20 shops a day that the majority of the advertising is in Polish or Kurdish or whatever. Although I don't patronise these shops, I'd expect as much help as a Polish person using these establishments. For, if their clientelle is primarily Polish, it makes sense to advertise in their language. If only they could speak English when necessary too, which sadly, a few can't.

Make of that what you will. Err on the side of 'nonsense in babble form' as you will.

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We are not drunks, we are multi-millionaires

[Icarus]

I was watching FoxNews a couple of months ago (purely for entertainment value, just about the only value the channel has) and they had a piece on that seems relevant to this discussion. In some famous restraunt in Philidelphia the owner put a sign in the window saying 'This is America. Please order in English.' It caused a whole big argument over immigrants and whether or not they should be essentially forced to speak English because the live in America, legally or otherwise. The issue of integration is a perennial problem facing any country with a high immigrant population, not just Britain in the wake of the accession of the new EU member states.

Immigration isn't a bad thing. A lot of the migrant workers are taking jobs that few British people seem to want to fill, so it's hardly like they're 'taking all our jobs' like reactionaries often moan. Historically immigration has benefited Britain for centuries; look at the positive impact the French Huguenot made for example. Personally I think it would be better if the government modelled its immigration policy more closely on the Australian model, encouraging immigration of people will skills missing in our economy, doctors, engineers etc, but we can't just close the borders because there are apparently an identifiable group of non-English speakers living in Britain. It's the price we pay for having an open and prosperous society.

But of course one needs to apply a little bit of common sense. This is an English speaking country, and it's reasonable to expect anyone who wants to move here to be willing to learn the native language of their adoptive country. It'd be ridiculous for me to move to France and expect everyone to speak English for my benefit because I don't speak French.

Actually come to think of it I think, as with so many problems, South Park deals with the problem the best. If anyone can be arsed watching it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvUxKqE666A

God bless Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

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[thePontificator]

Maybe we should get ICT to run the country? Financially they're very sound and do well on a small budget. Plus I'd love to see Darren Dods talking to George Bush about, well, anything really.

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[steerpike]

I'm in agreement with Odysseus here - we are going to benifit in the long run from an influx of foreign workers - we need them to support the Baby-boom generation when they all hit retirement.

As it happens, I'm working alongside a bunch of east-european ex-pats for a summer job, and it hasnt been lost on me that some of them have a slight aversion to talking in English. To an extent, I can understand that if you both live and work with people from your country of origin in a different country, that you're hardly up for breaking out of that mindset of, well, still being at home. A couple of Polish workers have complained to me at work that they feel like they've not yet got away from Poland - i'm actually glad that they brought that up and not me...




edited for grammar

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Nothing is easier than to condemn the evildoer, nothing is harder than to understand him.

F.Dostoevsky

[Mehmsy]

As a person who has lived as a foreign national in several countries during his whole life (parents are diplomats), I think I'm going to have to agree with the original poster here.

When you immigrate and travel to another country, you should expect to mold yourself into their culture, rather than them to yours. It's up to you to learn the language and adopt the mannerisms, because you are, technically, their guest.

It's kind of like a recent scandal in the States where transsexual inmates in jails asked for taxpayer's money to be spent on giving them sex change operations.

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[Frank]

I don't think it's any major problem with immigration. I'd hazard more than a slight guess that it comes to do with 'expecting' things from anyone, and each side not actually being comfortable, or often even aware, of what the other expects. Even once you have that, you have the problem that one or both may not *like* the expectations.

Pushing it further, there may be more'n two sides.

Immigration isn't a bad thing, but balancing the clash of societies is a fairly tough one, especially when *alot* of people come at it from a "Them" vs "Us" point of view.

Me, for instance, I don't have a 'Them'/'Us' point of view. It's more of a 'Me'/'Everyone Else', not that I'm being intentionally selfish in that distinction, but just realising that there's what I think, then the whole multitude of everyone else. And as I know every migrant isn't the same, it'd be foolish of me to start writing for the Daily Hate on the matter without first acknowledging what I didn't know.

I honestly and 100% blame the tabloids. Only the tabloids deal in absolutes.



Frank

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"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."