New Ruling on HMO Licensing in Town Centre - Petition

[sqril]

OK not clear on all the details, and apologise if I turn out to have got anything wrong.

TOMORROW petition signing outside the library RE changes to HMO liscencing in StA's *SIGN IT*

Basically some motion is going to be passed/amended through StA's town council in a couple of days and they could decide for example to only renew licences for 5 houses on each street in the town centre, no licences will be immediately revoked but it will make it much more difficult for students to find accommodation next year. This is apparently only an amendment to some previous ruling so there is going to be no big debate, it will happen in 2 days (so petition signing only 2morrow) hopefully the petition will persuade the council to allow most or all of the pre-existing HMO houses to renew their licenses. If you care, even if you are in hall this year (!) do sign it!

[Senethro]

Sounds good. Seriously, the council in this town is out to get us.

[Fawksie]

Quoting sqril from 22:02, 13th Nov 2006
Basically some motion is going to be passed/amended through StA's town council in a couple of days and they could decide for example to only renew licences for 5 houses on each street in the town centre

[snip]

it will happen in 2 days

St Andrews Community Council can't decide any such thing. They are statutory consultees to Fife Council on planning issues, which I don't think even covers HMO licensing. There has been no mention of any such motion in the agendas or minutes of the CC as far back as I've looked (January 06). Who's got the full story?

[Cain]

This new motion, if it comes to pass...

ask yourself "Who benefits?"

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I hold an element of surprise

[munchingfoo]

If this is true, as a student, I completely agree with it.

Rich (and semi rich) people are buying up houses in St Andrews with the sole purpose of getting on the student letting cash cow. This drives house prices through the roof leaving normal people unable to affoprd a house in their own town.

Solutions such as the university building more accom., students living outside of town and would be landlords commsioning new builds would be far better.

(particularly the last one)

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Grandpa]

Quoting Fawksie from 22:45, 13th Nov 2006

Quoting sqril from 22:02, 13th Nov 2006
Basically some motion is going to be passed/amended through StA's town council in a couple of days and they could decide for example to only renew licences for 5 houses on each street in the town centre

[snip]

it will happen in 2 days

St Andrews Community Council can't decide any such thing. They are statutory consultees to Fife Council on planning issues, which I don't think even covers HMO licensing. There has been no mention of any such motion in the agendas or minutes of the CC as far back as I've looked (January 06). Who's got the full story?

Ok, as far as I know via a very good friend (who happens to live with my other friend, Mnsr. B Nicholson) this is the situation (some of the 'detrimental effects are my own thoughts, but nonetheless possible):-

1. There will be an ammendment passed allowing councils to decide how many/whether to re-issue an HMO.

2. This is an ammendment to an already passed motion in the Scottish Parliament, so it will not be debated, but simply voted on (is this allowable? does this happen - this is what i was told, but not knowing the ins and out of parliamentary ammendments to already passed bills, I do not know)

3. It will mean, basically (and other social/economic considerations apart) that There would be immediate detrimental effects to students:
- Present student houses would not be able to house more than one student, therfore would not house any (impractical, costwise)
- More student housing would need to be found, but there isn't all that much round here, even farther afield.
- The uni may/may not be forced to build more halls, (which is unlikely anyhow) so the possibility of private (?more expensive?) accomodation is increased.

[hr]

We are gentlemen that neither in our hearts nor outward eyes envy the great nor shall the low despise.

[BeccaLydia]

If they said in x years this is what we are going to do (i.e. reduce number of HMOs) then that would be more reasonable and make more sense. As it is, there's no way that if this goes ahead the current number of students can be housed.
It's getting ridiculous as it is - last year I lived in a 6 bed place with one other person, in the centre of town, just because they couldn't get an HMO. And that was only the last of a long list of dealings with HMOs, including having one place rejected for an HMO, despite meeting all requirements, solely on the basis of 2 or 3 people disliking students.
It's frustrating as I understand that the council wants to force the issue of lack of housing, or appropriate housing, for students, but in doing this they will just end up with less students. Less students equals less income for the locals and a reduction in income can never be considered good in a dying city.
It's something I feel very strongly about, having had to deal with HMOs a lot over the last two years - they need to go about this in another way as this will not work.

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[munchingfoo]

Quoting BeccaLydia from 01:14, 14th Nov 2006
in a dying city.

What evidence do you base the claim that St Andrews is a dying city?

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Midget]

Quoting munchingfoo from 01:31, 14th Nov 2006

Quoting BeccaLydia from 01:14, 14th Nov 2006
in a dying city.

What evidence do you base the claim that St Andrews is a dying city?

The gowns used to be white.

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[BeccaLydia]

Quoting munchingfoo from 01:31, 14th Nov 2006

Quoting BeccaLydia from 01:14, 14th Nov 2006
in a dying city.

What evidence do you base the claim that St Andrews is a dying city?

I don't claim to have specific scientific evidence, but the phrase has been used a lot in the last few years and does make sense. There are few opportunities in the city for young people - either hotel work or working in a family-run business. Neither are bad professions to have, but I'm sure you'll find that most young people want to get out of the area they grew up in, especially when it's this small. Most of us talk about getting out of the bubble, which is not necessarily a negative thing, but probably is if you've grown up here. My point is that the majority of the younger people leave St A for bigger cities and don't necessarily return, therefore heavily suggesting that the city is, at its roots, dying. Answer the question?

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[munchingfoo]

In order for the "city" to be "dying" it would need to show a decline in these opportunities you raise. This is a small town, of course there aren't many professional jobs going. And I'm pretty sure that its only students that talk about "the bubble". I think the town is doing just fine.

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Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Thalia]

You'll probably find that family-wise, St Andrews is quite a good place to live - young adults may find it boring but people with kids are more likely to appreciate it for being such a nice, well-kept town and not all that far away from Dundee where jobs would be available.

And let's not forget, there are loads of jobs within the university.

[hr]

The shadow proves the sunshine...

...And I am a Sinner Goddess.

[BeccaLydia]

I agree with that. I suppose it just gets my back up a bit when, without the university this city would have a lot less going for it and a lot less to offer those families, yet they often seem intent on making it very difficult for us to live here. I never felt a lot of antagonism towards students until it came to finding somewhere to live - it often seems as though we're fine for keeping the economy going while the tourist season is low, but we're not good enough to live near them. I find it offensive that I am considered to be loud and inconsiderate just because I am a student. When these reasons were cited for the HMO not to be given to the property I was due to move into last year, I felt as though this attitude was similar to racism - maybe extreme, but it definitely felt like it!

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[Grandpa]

A possible scenario?

Yeah, well, back to the topic in hand: If we think that the council should be able to issue HMO's at their discretion we are going to find ourselves (i.e. students, or anyone renting a house for more than one person to live in, and thus the university by extension) in a bit of a muddle.

Imagine the scenario if, for example, on a rolling basis, the council decides to not re-issue HMOs to many landlords: Less housing = less students within the town. On a side note, this is not an unimaginable situation, given the history of the HMO debate in St Andrews (the town, the union, etc.).

Granted there would be available housing in nearby villages/towns/cities but I would imagine that the majority of students would expect to be able to live in the place they study at. Surely this is not the case for everyone (I know students who live outside St Andrews), but it is only reasonable to assume that there would be some sort of accommodation available in St Andrews. I know an argument along the lines of 'what god given right does a student have to demand accommodation?' But, again, surely it is only reasonable to expect to find housing in the place one wishes to, or indeed, is studing at.

However, consider this: Contrary to popular belief, not all of us either have financial support from parents/other means. I know mature students whose parents are loaded, yes, but they don't support them - but that's simply an example for you. Furthermore, many students will be from poorer backgrounds - and I know that some of you will simply look down on poorer people as lesser beings, but at the end of the day the system is there to benefit itself, not to benefit the more affluent among us. What I mean is that if we want society to benefit as much as it can from the brainiest of us all, it necessarily must be accessible to us all.

Further to this, if there are less and less people able to come to St Andrews due to HMO policies which could be viewed in discriminatory terms, then either the council has a Human Rights issue on its hands (imaginable, but unlikely), or the University and town will suffer in the long term. Let me qualify that. I have already said that it is not unreasonable to expect that you can live in the place you study. If however you find you cannot, then your student loan/money from elsewhere is probably going to be spent on accommodation and living/studying costs elsewhere, like Glenrothes, for example (an arbitrary choice of alternative place of abode). Glenrothes, then, as a community of businesses, services and people will benefit and St Andrews will begin to feel the negative economic effects of this. An example: Rentable houses will remain empty, as no one would be able to afford to rent a house simply for him/herself, landlords of these houses will try, eventually, to sell but the amount s/he will be able to get will be far less than what was paid for it. Why so? Because with less demand for housing in general due to less student demand, as shown, but also due less demand for family homes as the negative economic effects escalate due to a lesser number of students bringing a lower demand for a lesser amount of goods and services resulting in a lesser amount of money flowing through and in St Andrews. So landlords will sell houses, but will not receive what it was previously worth or maybe even what was paid for it, or they will hang on to them in the hope that the council will reverse its decision on HMOs. However, given the history of the HMO debate within St Andrews (as I previously said), this is unlikely.

The anticipated HMO related policy of the council will harm not only students, but people who have come here to work and are in shared houses. Maybe the council thinks that this is all good, because in a situation like the one I describe just above there is less need for such housing for such people, but the effects will be felt much more immediately by those who have moved here to work - as immediately as students will feel such effects.

Lastly, the University will feel these effects too. With less places for St Andreans (that's people who'd live here anyway, and students) to live negative press of this sort is undoubtedly going to spread. With less students able to live in and around St Andrews, the University will find itself in receipt of less students. With less students coming here, the number of 'top grade' students will fall and the University's academic reputation will also suffer.[s] Can the university afford to downsize? What of its resources in terms of buildings and (academic and other) equipment of differing natures? Will these too also be made effectively redundant from a lack of student use???[/s]

I think the proposed ammendments to the HMO bill/law are inappropriate for places of comparable size to St Andrews as it will have, I think, massive negative knock on effects both for the livlihoods and wellbeing of the people and businesses of this town as well as students and the university itself.
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We are gentlemen that neither in our hearts nor outward eyes envy the great nor shall the low despise.

[Grandpa]

Human Rights

I know this IS far fetched (what that I say isn't?), however....

Is anyone out there well versed in the Human Rights Act or anti discrimination law (or the bits of it that apply to this)?

Would there be an interpretation of it that might view this whole thing in terms of discrimination against a group, i.e. us students? Resultantly, are HMOs, used in the way we have seen them (as BeccyLydia shows) breaches of our rights in themselves??

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We are gentlemen that neither in our hearts nor outward eyes envy the great nor shall the low despise.

[flarewearer]

I was under the impression that HMO licences were brought in to make accommodation for students safer after a number of tragedies, not to allow petty town councillors with a vendetta to set up an anti-student NIMBY quota system.

Challenge it on the stupidity of the system, if the details are correct. 5 houses per street? That means that only 5 houses on Lamond Drive (with it's 200-odd houses) would be available, while there being 5 houses on North Castle Street (with it's handful of houses) also being available. Also, I'm sure there will be plenty local landlords who have second houses who stand to lose out on this.

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[Don]

I believe the person who started this thread said it was 5 houses per street in the city centre, so I would assume that means North Street, Market Street, South Street and a few f the streets which come off them. I doubt it would include anything the other side of Kiness Burn

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Daz, makes your whites #gggggg

[ja242]

Just to clear a few things up on this.

Two scottish MSPs have tabled a last minute amendment which will give power to local authorities in Scotland to put quotas on the numbers of HMOs issued in their respective towns.

This is a national motion, with serious implications for St Andrews, Edinburgh and Glasgow. The amendment was lodged by Pauline McNeill, an MSP in Glasgow. The scottish parliament will be voting on the motion on either Thursday or Friday of this week. Because of the nature of the amendment (Stage 3), it does not need to be scrutinised by the parliamentary committee and nor does it give us adequate time to take action against the amendment.

You can see the agenda for the Scottish Parliament this week at at
http://www.politics.co.uk/parliamentary ... 453179.htm
The HMO amendment is in the Stage 3 proceedings as part of the Planning etc Bill where it has been lodged.

As people have already mentioned in this thread, the implications of quotas would be quite detrimental in St Andrews. There is a serious risk of less housing and because of the shorter supply, prices could rise further than existing rent rates. It is already a difficult task finding somewhere to live in January time when the estate agents lists are released (sleeping outside, queuing, ringing round frantically etc), and this motion, if passed will make the accomodation situation in this town even worse than present.

I would urge everyone to make an effort to sign this petition.

[niall]

Quoting Don from 09:18, 14th Nov 2006
I believe the person who started this thread said it was 5 houses per street in the city centre, so I would assume that means North Street, Market Street, South Street and a few f the streets which come off them. I doubt it would include anything the other side of Kiness Burn

but it will set a precedent, and it could be expanded to the rest of the towm. Plus think just how many student flats there are on Market street, I've personally been in about 7 or 8, and there will be a helluva lot more than that!

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do you have a tastyspoon?

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[Dave the Explosive Newt]

Quoting munchingfoo from 23:29, 13th Nov 2006
If this is true, as a student, I completely agree with it.

Rich (and semi rich) people are buying up houses in St Andrews with the sole purpose of getting on the student letting cash cow. This drives house prices through the roof leaving normal people unable to affoprd a house in their own town.

Solutions such as the university building more accom., students living outside of town and would be landlords commsioning new builds would be far better.

(particularly the last one)

The problem is that HMOs only regulate 3+bedroom houses. If the number of HMOs per street were limited, then landlords would just start buying up the 1/2 bedroom places instead - making it a) even pricer to rent a flat and b) driving up the cost of what is usually the cheapest housing on the market. If you check the St Andrews Community Council minutes for when last time this kicked off rises in prices of 1/2 bedroom flats did indeed occur (and they more or less ignored a very long letter that I had sent to them).

I'd ask the accomodation subcommitee (who I assume are organising this) if we've got any MSPs who support our stance?

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