Police madness at my other uni too!

[Manic23]

Quoting Captain_Spanky from 15:27, 18th Nov 2006

Homophobia? Sweeping generalisation?

Well call me old fashioned, and perhaps I'm behind with the times, but the term 'faggot' as I understand it is a rather derogatory word for a homosexual, no? And of course those who saw the footage and deemed to be excessive are of course going to be 'liberal pussies' aren't they?

I've heard/read two eye witness accounts of what happened, read quite a few articles on tasering, and reports from military and police members who use tasers and can quite easily form my own opinion thanks.

You have formed you're own opinion - well done, you've exercised your democratic right. That wasn't the point of my post. The fact that you've lambasted those who disagree in rather unsavoury terms was.


And all of those come to the same conclusion: the guy definately deserved it, and that tasering is pretty much safe and in fact leaves the subject feeling a rush of endorphins after the charge is stopped.

Yes, because they think that it MUST be true. And whether or not the tasering "leaves the subject feeling a rush of endorphins after the charge is stopped" is beside the point. The point is did the CSO's have the right to exercise this in the first place i.e. were they too excessive? But you have asserted yourself to be right, and the rest who beg to differ as, well "liberal pussies."

And as for insulting my intellingence I find it a little ironic that you couldn't use your reading comprehension skills to look past the way I said things to what I was saying.

Sorry, what? Is there some deep, meaningful underlying context to the term "Douchebaggot"? What should I be looking for past "Suck on that liberal fags"? And I particularly loved your conclusion that "Anyone who can spout crap about "THIS IS YOUR PATRIOT ACT" after being tazed clearly hasthe ability to stand up." - yes, I forgot we need the power of speech to use our legs. Just look at Ash Atalla...

Judgemental much? Oh noes you looked at my facbook profile. If I didn't stand behind it 100% it wouldn't be in the public domain and neither would this.

No, I'm sure we'd have a grand old time in the pub talking of the days of yore, but when I see someone who has created a facebook group dedicated to how brilliant they are themselves, I do begin to wonder. And (last time I'll say this), DO stand behind what you believe, but DON'T such a complete cock when it comes to a debate with someone who does not hold the same stance as yourself.

[Darshybaby]

Captain Spanky,

You really are a contradiction. okay...so hold on a second...are you not a member of "I want to have sex in the library" on Facebook? yep you are. So...

As great as that would be (Hope you get to do it btw!)...it simply is against the rules. So let us say, that you do get a chance to have sex in the library...you gona go for it or not? So what happened to respect there?

Oh and actually NO they did not try to cuff him. They asked him to leave and as he was finally leaving, the cops decided to man handle him. Now the guy panicked and decided "fuck this", I'm not going to take this shit. It is also mid-term time out there, so when you have 9 week terms, you are going to be stressed out. So...in essence, three cops, two CSOS...could have easily overpowered him and put on the cuffs. I refuse to believe that they could not have. It is as simple as that.

[exnihilo]

You keep ignoring the point, though, if five men had overpowered him and put on the cuffs in his agitated and potentially violent state then there's a very real chance he would have come to actual physical harm and probably hurt or injured one or more of the policemen too. To bring him down with a taser minimised risk to both sides and accomplished the goal of subduing him without use of undue force. Surely?

Plus, call it racial profiling if you will, but he could not produce proof he was a student, so to all intents and purposes he had no right to be there. I'm really not bothered that it would inconvenience him to have to go home and get his card he should have been aware that security staff, and America as a whole, is in a heightened state in the current climate and not acted in a fashion likely to exacerbate that.

[Darshybaby]

How you doing Mr Joss? Long time.

Yeh I see what you are saying but...it is very easy to get a man down when you are trained to do so. Simple self-defence, teaches you how to take a man down without hurting them. Once down, one cop holding each limb down, and cuffing him...is not impossible. The fact is the two officers who did this were jumped up idiots...as is evident by the line "stand back or I'll taser you too!", when one of the other students asks for his badge number. A simple question which legally has to be responded with the officer providing the badge number...even if not immediately, then at some point. However, the officer refused to do so and instead used a threat. In my opinion totally ridiculous.

People often forget that not everyone who goes into policing...is doing so, because they want to fight crime and protect others. Sometimes, people go into policing because they have no other choice...ie. they know they can get paid to do a job which puts them in authority. Simply being an "officer" does not make you lawful.

I doubt that, when faced with the fact that 189 people have died from tasers in the last three years in the USA...I would rather the cops "risk" a small injury then tasering someone 7 times. And that actually answers your question...after one taser shot, the student is sufficiently shocked to take him down and handcuff him. It makes no sense to keep saying "get up, get up, get up". When the guy is already almost on the floor....simply pinning him down is not impossible.

Mate...how many terrorists tend to be in a library in the middle of the night, studying? I mean Powell Library is not exactly a terrorist target. It is nowhere near the town centre...Westwood. It is in the middle of campus and in it's own block. The reason they do security checks is because of theft...the library has the 4th largest collection of books in the USA and has many students working in it. The uni basically doesn't want thieves or rapists lurking about. In this case...it was two clearly inexperienced officers, who handled a simple situation badly.

[nighteyes]

Quoting Captain_Spanky from 23:03, 17th Nov 2006

that little douchbaggot (a combination of douchebag and faggot) got what he deserved.

Suck on that liberal fags.

[hr]

Beatrice - Darling. Dearest. Dead.

I would avoid me in the flat for a while.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[The Dude]

Quoting exnihilo from 17:52, 18th Nov 2006
You keep ignoring the point, though, if five men had overpowered him and put on the cuffs in his agitated and potentially violent state then there's a very real chance he would have come to actual physical harm and probably hurt or injured one or more of the policemen too. To bring him down with a taser minimised risk to both sides and accomplished the goal of subduing him without use of undue force. Surely?

DrAlex
I just want to check that you aren't confusing the police with the CSOs. In which case, I think it is entirely plausible that campus police have worked in other divisions of the police, and so have probably faced situations similar to what the author describes.

How was the guy potentally violent? He swore a bit and then sat down. He was disobediant but did not threaten the police at all phisically or verbally. Also if somebody is not going to be able to competently fill their roal as a campus policeman they should either be retrained or dismissed. Even if they saw death in their previous job it is no excuse to use the same tactics against a disobediant yet peaceful man in a library as they would a violent man with a wepon.

[The Dude]

Quoting exnihilo from 17:52, 18th Nov 2006
You keep ignoring the point, though, if five men had overpowered him and put on the cuffs in his agitated and potentially violent state then there's a very real chance he would have come to actual physical harm and probably hurt or injured one or more of the policemen too. To bring him down with a taser minimised risk to both sides and accomplished the goal of subduing him without use of undue force. Surely?

DrAlex
I just want to check that you aren't confusing the police with the CSOs. In which case, I think it is entirely plausible that campus police have worked in other divisions of the police, and so have probably faced situations similar to what the author describes.

How was the guy potentally violent? He swore a bit and then sat down. He was disobediant but did not threaten the police at all phisically or verbally. Also if somebody is not going to be able to competently fill their roal as a campus policeman they should either be retrained or dismissed. Even if they saw death in their previous job it is no excuse to use the same tactics against a disobediant yet peaceful man in a library as they would a violent man with a wepon.

[The Dude]

Quoting exnihilo from 17:52, 18th Nov 2006
You keep ignoring the point, though, if five men had overpowered him and put on the cuffs in his agitated and potentially violent state then there's a very real chance he would have come to actual physical harm and probably hurt or injured one or more of the policemen too. To bring him down with a taser minimised risk to both sides and accomplished the goal of subduing him without use of undue force. Surely?

DrAlex
I just want to check that you aren't confusing the police with the CSOs. In which case, I think it is entirely plausible that campus police have worked in other divisions of the police, and so have probably faced situations similar to what the author describes.

How was the guy potentally violent? He swore a bit and then sat down. He was disobediant but did not threaten the police at all phisically or verbally. Also if somebody is not going to be able to competently fill their roal as a campus policeman they should either be retrained or dismissed. Even if they saw death in their previous job it is no excuse to use the same tactics against a disobediant yet peaceful man in a library as they would a violent man with a wepon.

[novium]

It's required to have your student ID when in there after hours, isn't it? and also, k00ind of pointless to be in the library without your ID in any case. So if he was going to be pissed, he should have been pissed at his own stupidity, and not been acting like a self-righteous prick. I am not defending the cops. They were wrong, they over reacted, etc. But I refuse to have much sympathy.

Quoting Darshybaby from 15:23, 18th Nov 2006
Novium...well the initial newspaper reports and video...suggest that a CSO asked for ID and when one was not produced, asked the guy to leave. The guy refused and then asked library staff (also students) to say summin. Then when the shouting begins, that is when the students gather to see what is happening.

Like I said, I would be pissed if I was clearly working on uni work and had to go all the way home to get a card to prove that I am allowed to be there. However, of course who knows what else was said.

From his facebook profile..it seems that he does Middle East Studies. Although his wall seems strangely fairly empty. Perhaps stuff deleted by him?

Look basically, yes, this student may not be all innocent in this. Yes we don't know the whole deal. However, what we do know is that the police should not react so violently. And that is not some "liberal wishywashy crap"...that is just basic common sense. I for one do not think the incident has done much good for the level of respect of UCPD at UCLA and in particular the UCPD CSO's. On another interesting note...with regards to the Daily Bruin article that someone here used to support the other side of the argument. Well the student reporter on there...seems to be friends with CSOs according to his Facebook. So when you take that bias into account....

Well who knows. The bottom line is...the police need to be less brutal.

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[exnihilo]

Quoting the dude from 18:20, 18th Nov 2006
How was the guy potentally violent? He swore a bit and then sat down. He was disobediant but did not threaten the police at all phisically or verbally.

What part about swearing and being truculent suggests a pacific nature? Certainly the police over-reacted, but he was in the wrong, knew it, and was still unco-operative and mouthy. I think you're too keen to see an agenda that isn't there, and like Novium I feel no sympathy for him.

[The Dude]

Quoting exnihilo from 19:39, 18th Nov 2006

Quoting the dude from 18:20, 18th Nov 2006
How was the guy potentally violent? He swore a bit and then sat down. He was disobediant but did not threaten the police at all phisically or verbally.

What part about swearing and being truculent suggests a pacific nature? Certainly the police over-reacted, but he was in the wrong, knew it, and was still unco-operative and mouthy. I think you're too keen to see an agenda that isn't there, and like Novium I feel no sympathy for him.

I'm not saying that I feel sorry for the guy for getting chucked out of the library for not having an ID. There are methods of doing this and when they are not followed their can be greater detriment caused by those who are keeping the peace than those who are breaking it. Rodney King broke the law as well. This guy should have been kicked out of the library like Rodney King should have got arrested. In protecting the values of our society though the peace keepers are just as accountable to those values as the peace breakers and when that standard is broken the police become just as bad )or in this case worse) than the rule breakers them selves. I am not trying to say this is a perfect example of rampant police brutality against innocents. In this instance though the police brutalized a man in an unprovoked manner.

[Jono]

Ah, I wish I was allowed play the race card occasionaly!

"Good enough for a F**king white man, you racist s***!" *Spits in face*

Fun times. unfortunatly as a W.A.S.P. i'm not allowed to.

Seriously, the guy was a knob! ID exists because otherwise anyone could come into the library and steal other peoples stuff (Like what's been happening in our own library!) If he had any sense he'd have said "Oh, i'm terribly sorry, I'll just go back to my accomodation to retrive it." But no, he decide to launch into a race-victim diatride. "Meh! I'm being oppressed! Because I'm black then they're forcing one set of rules on me, and THE SAME SET OF RULES ON EVERYONE ELSE!

As for the alternatives, what are they? He refused to move or walk out on his own steam, so what do you do? you can't leave him there, it's against uni rules. If you drag him out you'll likely dislocate his shoulder or bash his head off something in the process; slightly more injuring than a low-amperage tazer. Maybe if our own police forces were a bit more pro-active then they wouldn't get spat on and swore at by every little scrote in white Traccy bottoms!



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[DrAlex]

I do wonder, though, why the police thought that the Tazer made more sense than just picking him up and moving him. There were like 5 or 6 officers, so that they couldn't manage can't be an excuse. Surely both are equally assault-like.

[hr]

"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
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[md25]

Hi Darshan!

[Guest]

Novium fair point...but, come on how many times have you been out in St Andrews and not realised that you will be out later than expected. Then decided you want to go to the union with some mates...and as you get to the door...whoops no ID. Yep it's a simple mistake.

The incident happened at 11.30pm, so I am thinking the student must have been there from the early evening and most likely left the ID at home or just simply not thought, he would stay after hours. Simple as that. And I would disagree that all UCPD cops are fools.

LEt me give you one example. In the middle of Westwood...I saw this guy trying to break into a car that his gf had locked herself into. He was literally smashing up the car and then got inside and started threatening her. Just as a few of us gathered around, my roommat, who was a CSO was patrolling the streets, turned up. He called this in and three UCPD cars turned up immediately. All were armed. Not a single one of them used force...the guy was about 6ft 7 and probably about 18 stones of pure muscle. A big guy who was losing his mind!

The first cop purely told him to get out of the car and step to the side. The guy refused to listen. So the cop asked again. The guy still did not listen. So the cops asked again. He jumped out of the car and started shouting crap. It did not look good. At all. Then the cop told him to back away and to lower his voice. The guy still refused to listen. The cop then just backed down and said "Look I don't want to have to use force...so tell me what is the matter..why are you so angry?". This calmed the guy somewhat. The other cops ready to take action, waited on the sidelines. They let this negotation continue for about 2 mins. And how did this end? Well the guy realised the cop was not an enemy and the cop realised that using force, when the guy was really pissed off...would make things escalate. The cop then told the guy to step back and sit down (back to the whole thing about getting pissed off people to just sit down) on the pavement. He then told the guy that he had to handcuff him and the guy who was very calm by now, said "ok...just don't hurt me". Total time...5 mins...injuries? none.

That is a trained cop...using his skill and experience to calm a potentially serious situation. I later found out that one of those squad cars had powerful weapons in the back, ready if something went wrong.

[DrAlex]

Quoting from 19:49, 18th Nov 2006
Novium fair point...but, come on how many times have you been out in St Andrews and not realised that you will be out later than expected [sic]. Then decided you want to go to the union with some mates...and as you get to the door...whoops no ID. Yep it's a simple mistake.

Except I somehow doubt that anyone on this board would find it logical or acceptable to persist in demanding entry, raise your voice when your denied repeatedly, and then go limp on the ground if the bouncers tried to move you along.

[hr]

"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
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[novium]

Never. I never go anywhere without my keys and ID (and to this end, I bought a little ID wallet to put on my keychain!). And the truth is, the comparison doesn't work. A better comparison would be me, planning to go to the Union, not bringing my ID, and then getting pissy when I'm not allowed in....even though I *knew* the rules.

As to the UCPD, i can only speak to my experiences with them, which mostly involved them not showing up until way after they were needed, and then, even when there was still a chance for them to do something, them ignoring that and pretending they had arrived (alas!) too late.

I'm in no way excusing what the cops did. But what i am saying is that it can't be cast as a simple example of a poor, helpless innocent student being oppressed by the Man.

Quoting from 19:49, 18th Nov 2006
Novium fair point...but, come on how many times have you been out in St Andrews and not realised that you will be out later than expected. Then decided you want to go to the union with some mates...and as you get to the door...whoops no ID. Yep it's a simple mistake.

The incident happened at 11.30pm, so I am thinking the student must have been there from the early evening and most likely left the ID at home or just simply not thought, he would stay after hours. Simple as that. And I would disagree that all UCPD cops are fools.

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[Darshybaby]

Hey novium

Sorry the unregistered post was from me. Just me being a muppet and not signing in and then thinking "damn...that took 4 mins to type out and it has not appeared!" and then now realising why!

Yep see your point...we have arrived at an agreement. whoop whoop. If we hadn't, I was going to tell you to back off and proceed to taser you :-0, But it's ok now. haha.

Hi md25! (sorry I do try to memorise St Andrews email ads but I'm bad with emails ,...so remind me who md25 is?)

[munchingfoo]

Quoting DrAlex from 17:47, 20th Nov 2006

Quoting from 19:49, 18th Nov 2006
Novium fair point...but, come on how many times have you been out in St Andrews and not realised that you will be out later than expected [sic]. Then decided you want to go to the union with some mates...and as you get to the door...whoops no ID. Yep it's a simple mistake.

Except I somehow doubt that anyone on this board would find it logical or acceptable to persist in demanding entry, raise your voice when your denied repeatedly, and then go limp on the ground if the bouncers tried to move you along.

Dude, this actually happens ( well the first bit, more often than you can evem imagine ).

The worst culprits are by far girls.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!