A question for the unionists

[munchingfoo]

Lid, I know you have been drinking Pimms but that doesn't excuse you being ignorant. I don't want independance but your post is typical of those on the con-side of scotish separatism which is just as niave as those on the other.

Scotland is (or atleast would be when its national waters were return to it as a country and not STOLEN by English borders) very wealtHy, for the next 60 or so years atleast.

If we did what Norway did with its wealth then we could be home free in a few decades.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Lid]

Scotlands waters are not stolen by England. This proves the mindset of those with nationalist leanings. They are the waters of the United Kingdom.

Factor into that that territorial waters generally extend to 10 miles, factor in a 50 mile area of economic waters, what about all those oilfields that lie outside them? How do you encourage them to stay? Renationalise them, but they're outside territorial waters. If you raise taxes to earn money from them, they'd probably ship the oil to elsewhere with lower taxes.

And remember that Britain would give independence to Scotland, not concede it.

[hr]

We are not drunks, we are multi-millionaires

[munchingfoo]

I just said, I am not for nationlism. This is not from a nationalist mindset. Its just a fucking fact.

Part of the agreement of devolution was that the Scotish/England sea borders(YES THEY DO EXIST YOU IGNORANT PRICK) were re-aranged such that half of the north sea oil fields fell under English teritory - fair? I think not.

AND I AM A BRITISH CITIZEN AND NEVER WANT TO CHANGE THAT.

P.S.

Just as a point to note - Aberdeen, the city where most of this oil is processed/sold has the lowest unemployment rate in the UK, 0.9%. Co-incedence?

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Lid]

The point stands, that you can give someone sea borders, but until they are an independent entity, they are only tokens.

The EEZs (Exclusive Economic Zones) belong to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as do the territorial waters. The defence of the waters of Scotland or England fall under the remit of the UK, for example.

The oilfields are drawn up between treaties put together in the late 60s, after oil was discovered in the North Sea. These treaties do specifically refer to the UK. It's the UK's oil under international law. Whatever the UK decides to do with this oil is up to them. Without nationalism, defining sectors is entirely pointless, surely. I'm not sure of the economics of it, but can Scotland raise their extra 1p in the pound on the oil exported from the Scottish fields, which the English fields could not?

Either way, name calling will not win the day. My point made was that we are still a union, and under international law, no matter how we divide outselves up internally, we are, externally, one country, so Scottish / English borders do not exist.

[hr]

We are not drunks, we are multi-millionaires

[ascii]

Quoting Lid from 00:29, 28th Nov 2006
The logistics of it would be absolutely mind-bendingly bizarre. Do you have a monarchy? No. OK, what happens to crown property? I'm assuming The Queen would keep it, it being her own.

Renewable energy capital of Europe? Where will the money come from to finance such a project? Raise taxes? People will just go elsewhere. Lower taxes, revenues decrease to levels below what is presently capable of sustaining the welfare state that people have grown comfortable to, and rely on.

So many things are ill-thought-out, the mechanics of the situation need much more thought, before anyone moves for nationalism. What money does Scotland have? If it were to normalise its currency in line with the Euro, how would that work? Is it just the money that the RBS, the Cyldesdale and the BoS have (bring back the Gold Standard)? Or do we take the investment that is currently made in Scotland, minus the treasury input that bankrolls a good slab of the services of Scotland?

And my final point. And I agree with DrAlex here. What good would it honestly do? Most SNP supporters seem to take the stance of 'let's break away, so we can say we're not British, so we're distinct from the English'. Not being part of something is not a good reason for being something else. We would, of course, see another 'Sick man of Europe'.

I don't know what the legal situation with crown property is, but I guess Scotland would get around a tenth of it, and pick up a similar share of the national debt.

Re: Renewable energy capital of Europe - where is the money coming from today? From companies from Scotland, England, Germany and beyond, as well as government funding. I don't think that investment would dry up on independence. There is great potential for renewables in Scotland, within or outside the UK.

I don't know how the money thing would work, but I'm sure some smart people will be able to work it out. Maybe the UK can join the Euro before independence, and save everyone the headache.

Having said all that, Lid, you're just being negative about independence, rather than beating the UK drum. I think one of the reasons David Cameron is turning the Tories around is because he's selling a positive vision for Britain, while Labour bang on about terrorism and crime.

The same thing is happening in Scotland. If Alex Salmond can paint a positive vision of an independent Scotland (regardless of the merits of independence) I think people will favour that over the gloom and scaremongering from Labour.

23 replies to the thread so far, and I reckon 3 have made an attempt to answer my initial question. Oh well, never expect the sinner to stay on topic.

[Lid]

Quoting munchingfoo from 00:58, 28th Nov 2006
P.S.

Just as a point to note - Aberdeen, the city where most of this oil is processed/sold has the lowest unemployment rate in the UK, 0.9%. Co-incedence?

Absolutely no co-incidence. As with any heavy industry, it's labour-intensive.

What is the average income of this area, however? For example, Doncaster was a mining area. Lots of jobs, very manual work. Still, in its day, one of the least prosperous and lowest paid areas in the UK.

[hr]

We are not drunks, we are multi-millionaires

[Idealist]

I'm speaking entirely as lamen here as my knowledge of political history is patchy as best!

It just seems to me that complete devolution would allow us to turn around and say..."eat your heart out Longshanks!" Yes I know that there is much more to it than that, but it seems that the main arguments are founded on patroism and history.

Don't get me wrong, I am fairly patriotic, I love my country and I'm proud to be Scottish. However I think its too far down the line now. The Scottish and the English are very well integrated, and modern communications make a journey from Aberdeen to London quick and easy (relatively speaking - I have been to Aberdeen airport!). Could we really be bothered with the hassle of obtaining a new passport and having to show it every time you wanted to cross the border? Thats a daily commute for some people!

Instead of deviding further and creating more opportunities for Scottish/English conflict, should we not be focusing energies on the bigger picture? Standing as a nation against terrorism and the likes?



[hr]

[s]"You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time"[/s]

[Gealle]

I wonder if any of the pro-independence lobby have ever sat down and thought about who would actually run the country if it ever got independence... eh, flarewearer

[hr]

Funky flunky munky...

[DrAlex]

Quoting Lid from 00:51, 28th Nov 2006
And remember that Britain would give independence to Scotland, not concede it.

Which raises the interesting point, if the SNP really did win big at the Scottish Elections, how would they go about securing independence? If we can see through their thinly veiled inadequacies , then surely Downing Street (or is it Buckingham Palace?) would have the foresight not to grant it.

[hr]

"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[Iain]

Just a brief scan through the posts overnight.

How many Scottish MEPs actually hold up the Scottish end in Europe? I did tell you doubters to ask the party on European matters. We wouldn't be run over.
As for Ireland, I hope the people of the west are roundly insulted by the suggestion of potato-munching, handout-seeking and tourist-licking! To my mind, Ireland gets a good deal from the EU because it negotiates, fights its corner and is constructive.

I should note before anyone comes on here saying "you can't talk" - I am an Irish passport holder and my mother was born and lived in Ireland for 25 years.

Fishing. It's to do with what type of fish you catch. A blanket ban as the EU propose and Westminster-biased politicians here happily might vote for doesn't account (correct me if I'm wrong) for the abundant haddock which Scottish fishermen could be catching.

Independence settlement. No Westminster Parliament will go against the settled will of the Scottish people. If the consultative referendum passes, we will become independent. Even the Tories concede that.

Idealist -
You will not have to show your passport at the border. In terms of travel/transport, Scotland will remain as it has been. There's no such thing as a Scottish-English conflict.

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[McK]

Quoting Iain from 09:42, 28th Nov 2006
Just a brief scan through the posts overnight.

How many Scottish MEPs actually hold up the Scottish end in Europe? I did tell you doubters to ask the party on European matters. We wouldn't be run over.
[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

I have, repeatedly. Sir Neil MacCormick, who you may know as your party's Vice President, a former MEP, and my former law tutor at Edinburgh. He is a highly intelligent man - eloquent and charming - but his argument still has not convinced me.

[Steveo]

Quoting Iain from 09:42, 28th Nov 2006
You will not have to show your passport at the border. In terms of travel/transport, Scotland will remain as it has been. There's no such thing as a Scottish-English conflict.

No war - fair enough, but it's still the case that the Scottish are some of the most hostile people in the world when it comes to the English. Take the example of international sport, where the majority of English people, when Scotland are playing either support or are indifferent. However, when England play, the Scottish invariably reveal the collective racism that runs through sport in this country and denounce the English, in an absolutely despicable manner. It's not playful competition anymore, the Scottish people, certainly the most vocal ones have a disdain for the English that is both despicable and disgusting.

On the Crown - would Her Majesty remain head of state? I have been considering living in Edinburgh after I graduate, but if independence does go ahead, and the Scottish people reject Her Majesty, who loves Scotland so much (the Queen Mother was Scottish) I will sever all ties with Scotland and never return, and I know a fair few Scottish people who plan to leave Scotland for england if this happens.

[hr]

Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

[munchingfoo]

Thats utter tosh. The anti-English sentiment comes from a vocal minority.

I hear far more often "The scots hate us" from an Englishman than "We hate the English" from scotsmen.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Iain]

Quoting Steveo from 10:48, 28th Nov 2006

No war - fair enough, but it's still the case that the Scottish are some of the most hostile people in the world when it comes to the English. Take the example of international sport, where the majority of English people, when Scotland are playing either support or are indifferent. However, when England play, the Scottish invariably reveal the collective racism that runs through sport in this country and denounce the English, in an absolutely despicable manner. It's not playful competition anymore, the Scottish people, certainly the most vocal ones have a disdain for the English that is both despicable and disgusting.

On the Crown - would Her Majesty remain head of state? I have been considering living in Edinburgh after I graduate, but if independence does go ahead, and the Scottish people reject Her Majesty, who loves Scotland so much (the Queen Mother was Scottish) I will sever all ties with Scotland and never return, and I know a fair few Scottish people who plan to leave Scotland for england if this happens.

[hr]

Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

The Queen remains head of state. I'd be fairly happy for Scotland to remain part of the Commonwealth indefinitely.

Sport brings out the worst in everybody. I'll say this; I don't hate the English, there's plenty of English friends. But if Scotland play England at football/rugby I'll put it all into fighting the English - its just the way I'm built. Why I support independence is multi-faceted and all to do with improving Scotland not some negative view of another country and its people.

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[McK]

Quoting Steveo from 10:48, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting Iain from 09:42, 28th Nov 2006
You will not have to show your passport at the border. In terms of travel/transport, Scotland will remain as it has been. There's no such thing as a Scottish-English conflict.

No war - fair enough, but it's still the case that the Scottish are some of the most hostile people in the world when it comes to the English. Take the example of international sport, where the majority of English people, when Scotland are playing either support or are indifferent. However, when England play, the Scottish invariably reveal the collective racism that runs through sport in this country and denounce the English, in an absolutely despicable manner. It's not playful competition anymore, the Scottish people, certainly the most vocal ones have a disdain for the English that is both despicable and disgusting.

On the Crown - would Her Majesty remain head of state? I have been considering living in Edinburgh after I graduate, but if independence does go ahead, and the Scottish people reject Her Majesty, who loves Scotland so much (the Queen Mother was Scottish) I will sever all ties with Scotland and never return, and I know a fair few Scottish people who plan to leave Scotland for england if this happens.

[hr]

Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

I am a unionist but I even I won't subscribe to this sort of pithy, ill-founded argument. A vocal minority of Scots may say such things but this 'The English are saints who support Scotland in sport' won't wash. There are plenty of Englishmen I know who berate Scottish sport and the country in general. (Most, I must say, come from south of the Watford Gap.)

As for your threatening to leave Scotland and never returning because Scots may reject Her Majesty, that is your loss. I don't think there has been any debate about who would be head of state in an independent Scotland but there is no definite plan, were such an eventuality to occur, for a republic. (Although constitutionally, I personally think it makes some sense, my admiration for the Queen aside.)

[Malcolm]

Quoting Steveo from 10:48, 28th Nov 2006I know a fair few Scottish people who plan to leave Scotland for england if this happens.

I'm one of them. I've been completely unconvinced by the whole independence debate for basically my entire politically-aware life, there just doesn't seem to be any reason or justification for independence.

All I see are SNP and anti-English zealots bashing anyone who dare disagree with them, bitter because they know their argument holds no weight.

[hr]

"Moskau, Moskau,
Wirf die Gläser auf die Wand
Russland ist ein schönes Land
o-ho ho ho ho ho, hey!"

[Lid]

Quoting Iain from 11:12, 28th Nov 2006
The Queen remains head of state. I'd be fairly happy for Scotland to remain part of the Commonwealth indefinitely.

So what you're advocating is a constitutional monarchy that is party to both the Commonwealth and the EU?

Isn't this rather at odds with nationalist calls for a referendum on a Scottish Republic? And rather similar to the situation we have at the moment, just without the investment from Westminster in infrastructure and public services?

[hr]

We are not drunks, we are multi-millionaires

[McK]

Quoting Malcolm from 11:19, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting Steveo from 10:48, 28th Nov 2006I know a fair few Scottish people who plan to leave Scotland for england if this happens.

I'm one of them. I've been completely unconvinced by the whole independence debate for basically my entire politically-aware life, there just doesn't seem to be any reason or justification for independence.

All I see are SNP and anti-English zealots bashing anyone who dare disagree with them, bitter because they know their argument holds no weight.

[hr]

"Moskau, Moskau,
Wirf die Gläser auf die Wand
Russland ist ein schönes Land
o-ho ho ho ho ho, hey!"

Then I pity you for not having experienced a proper debate on the matter. I am with you in terms of support for the union but I do not underestimate the nationalists (of any party); plenty of them have clever arguments, and they are not (for the most part) blue-faced, chest beating thugs. I just disagree with them, that's all, and I would certainly not leave Scotland 'in a strop' unless independence genuinely does turn out to completely blight Scotland, if it were ever to happen.

[McK]

Quoting Lid from 11:34, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting Iain from 11:12, 28th Nov 2006
The Queen remains head of state. I'd be fairly happy for Scotland to remain part of the Commonwealth indefinitely.

So what you're advocating is a constitutional monarchy that is party to both the Commonwealth and the EU?

Isn't this rather at odds with nationalist calls for a referendum on a Scottish Republic? And rather similar to the situation we have at the moment, just without the investment from Westminster in infrastructure and public services?

[hr]

We are not drunks, we are multi-millionaires

I thought the nationalist referendum was on an independent Scotland, not a Scottish republic. (Dear god. I am defending them now.)

[ascii]

Quoting Malcolm from 11:19, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting Steveo from 10:48, 28th Nov 2006I know a fair few Scottish people who plan to leave Scotland for england if this happens.

I'm one of them. I've been completely unconvinced by the whole independence debate for basically my entire politically-aware life, there just doesn't seem to be any reason or justification for independence.

All I see are SNP and anti-English zealots bashing anyone who dare disagree with them, bitter because they know their argument holds no weight.

I've been waiting for Malcolm to arrive with a constructive post like the one above. I'm surprised however - normally you're spouting your dislike of all things Scotland, today it's just nat bashing. Beginning to thaw are we?