Quoting ljrmorgan from 21:24, 28th Nov 2006
Arguing against independence with a bunch of SNP supporters is a bit like arguing against the existence of god with a priest - no matter how right you might know you are, they've heard all the arguments before and always have a response. Having said that, I'll try anyway.
And arguing with a Unionist is like...?
The reason that so many people in Scotland are apparently in favour of independence is probably because it is an issue that until this week has been largely ignored by the main parties, with the exception of the SNP, who, as various people have pointed out, appear to use every unpopular policy/controversial area, whether it be Iraq, ID cards, the NHS, ..., as a reason for Scotland to be independent.
And frankly why not? If Scotland was independent we would have a better say as to whether we went into Iraq (although Denmark did), and it would be Scottish people deciding on the NHS and ID cards. Yes, of course the overwhelming majority of Scots voted for this Labour government, but they didn't vote Tory in the 80s.
I assume that the reason so many English apparently want Scottish independence is because of the recent, frankly, populist shit-stirring over the West Lothian question by the Conservatives. I agree that there is an issue there (though not as much of an issue as it may at first seem given that the number of Westminster constituencies in Scotland was reduced when the parliament was devolved) Scottish independence is not the only answer.
They are doing us many great favours, thanks guys!. But Scotland is still slightly over-represented. It does seem to undermine the union entirely though to have different classes of MPs
As for people dismissing the "2.5 million (almost 50% of) Scots have family in England" argument, because Scots also have ties to India, Poland, everywhere else... is ridiculous - last time I looked 50% of Scots don't have close family in India!
Apparently more Maltese people live in Melbourne than in Malta - family ties have fuck all to do with it. Independence will make no difference to how people see their relatives. No difference whatsoever.
Scotland's economy is also heavily dependent on English trade, I cant remember the exact figure, or the source, though I'm fairly sure I read recently that 90% of our service sector exports were to England. Aside from that, the costs of making Scotland independent would be incredibly high and absolutely crippling, anyone who doesn't realise/accept that is clearly living in a fantasy world. We'd be changing currency to the Euro (SNP are pro-Euro, I wont start on the endless anti-Euro arguments, though there are loads); god knows how we'd split up the military, NHS, every part of the public sector; we'd presumably need all the diplomatic stuff that goes with being a foreign country - embassies, links with the EU, god knows what else; One can only imagine the effect on industry, academia (how many English students are at St Andrews for example?), everything else that people in England and the rest of the UK as a whole contribute to.
This is one of the best ones - how will an independent Scotland change our trade balance with England? Would people like yourself stop coming here for business or pleasure beacuse we had the temerity to vote for independence?
And how many non-UK students are here studying in St Andrews? Why would independence change that?
The picture of an independent Scotland the nationalists seem to be painting seems to have all the economic benefits of being part of the UK and none of the downsides of not. Call me cynical, but frankly I think thats a bit far fetched. Its very difficult to argue whether or not Scotland's economy would be stronger if it were independent as no one seems to be able to agree on the effects of independence - the SNP say we'd be substantially better off, everyone else (well, most) completely disagree and both sides back up their arguments with surveys, statistics, theories, examples... The arguments I've stated above are just the most immediate things that jump into my head, I imagine there are thousands of better and more substantiated economic concerns.
Ok, so lets not try then.
One SNP argument over the economy is that by remaining part of the UK we have to suffer interest rates etc. set to benefit England which are not best suited to increasing Scottish economic growth. Instead they suggest we join the EU, where the interest rate is set to benefit the main economies in the Euro zone, and may well be even more detrimental to Scotland. I could see that increased federalism (a Lib Dem policy) would allow a greater level of control over the local economy, not just in Scotland but in other regions of the UK as well, while still giving the advantages of one of the biggest economies in Europe, but I don't think completely breaking up the country and joining the Euro would benefit anyone at all.
Ah, how easy economics would be if it was all about interest rates! Or maybe not, but Scotland joinging the Euro isn't fait accompli.
The SNP seem to basically just criticise the "London controlled" Labour/Lib dem government and blame them and Westminster (read "England") for everything wrong with the country, without saying how they'd address it, other than by becoming independent. Who knows what would happen if (god forbid) Scotland did become independent and Salmond actually had to run something and couldn't blame England when it all went wrong.
Yes, we do blame England too much. I think they haven't been too bad to us actually - letting us be the brains behind the Empire and all that. Let us not forget any time a real injustice happened (the Clearances for example) there were Scots there, shoulder to shoulder with the English.
Scotland needs to be independent in order to stop all the blame game as much as anything else. We are the masters of our own fate after all.
If people wont to protest over Iraq then vote for the Lib Dems, who opposed the war, don't vote to break up the country over it - most people in, say, Newcastle (or anywhere else in the UK) opposed the war in Iraq, doesn't mean they're going to break away from the UK just to try and protest about it. If you see that there may be economic advantages if Scotland (or any other small region in the UK) had greater power over its economy, but don't support splitting the country up, then vote for the lib Dems who support increased federalism. If you want to vote for democratic reform of Westminster so the party with 30% of the votes doesn't get 60% of the seats and so your protest votes actually make a difference, then vote lib dem.If you want to vote for a party which has had experience of being in power in Scotland
We already have, and they're cunts! (Joke, they haven't been bad, in a Lib-Dem sort of way, which means they haven't done much)
which proposed the hunting ban, free personal care for the elderly, free buses for the elderly and the smoking ban, then vote lib dem.
Or SNP, which supports all of these positions, and actually brought the legislation about!
you truly want a cleaner environment and a renewable Scotland then vote for the party that green peace called greener than the greens (who also support independence, btw), the lib dems. If you want to scrap tuition fees in the UK, vote lib dem.
Why, oh why, do lib dems still come out with that immortal line about tuition fees? And who is the only party the SNP has negotiated a potential post-election co-alition with. I'll give you a clue, their not the Tories)
(Finally stops writing and waits for the endless torrent of abuse and counter arguments...)
Is that enough?
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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc/
