It really were better in the old days

[flarewearer]

Quoting Lid from 03:07, 25th Mar 2007
Mr Accommodation Officer (Elect.),

It's most re-assuring to see the figures level off, and in fact the lowest-quartile properties fall, I hope this is something you'll be lobbying to see happen consistently

They aren't. It's just the way Excel projects smoothed lines. With hindsight, I suggest you re-plot the graphs with this feature turned off, James.

[hr]

[Lid]

Quoting James Shield from 03:09, 25th Mar 2007 Combined, there are 564 rooms in Albany and Fife Parks, and I doubt that's changed much.

Actually, I remember hearing about Albany changing their common room to a bedroom, a couple of years ago now, I may be wrong on that, but that could have increased the numbers in Albany slightly... maybe that's just hearsay though, but if it's true, that's something that would need to be normalised.

[hr]

Mathematical Anti Telharsic Harfatum Septomin

[Lid]

Quoting flarewearer from 03:12, 25th Mar 2007
They aren't. It's just the way Excel projects smoothed lines.

I'd be interested to see the actual figures you used too, Andy. It's a pity that Excel misleads us in this way. Maybe it's a conspiracy between the University, Microsoft and RBS (or whoever manages the university's long term debt) to make us think differently!

[hr]

Mathematical Anti Telharsic Harfatum Septomin

[James Shield]

Quoting Lid from 03:13, 25th Mar 2007
I remember hearing about Albany changing their common room to a bedroom, a couple of years ago now, I may be wrong on that, but that could have increased the numbers in Albany slightly... maybe that's just hearsay though, but if it's true, that's something that would need to be normalised.

I'm hoping to clean up the data during/after the break and get exact numbers on everything. Yet another thing for the ever-expanding 'to do' list!

[flarewearer]

[img]http://www.magnificentoctopus.com/x/hlols2.png[/img]
That is the same graph re-plotted, without Excel's misleading line smoothing, and without the price of twin rooms (of which the majority are not) dragging down the New Hall and DRA prices.

P.S, that's a typo, interest is corrected annually from 1998

[hr]

[Cain]

Not that it would affect your figures too much, but what about common areas in halls of residence being turned into bedrooms?

For half of 4 years in Chattan one Study room was a bedroom for two or three girls, or there were people living in the games room.

Obviously, they weren't afforded the same 'standard of accomodation' as other students were. Were they charged reduced fees to reflect this?

[hr]

I hold an element of surprise

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

Unfortunately it's fear of debt rather than actual debt that is the main deterrant for students from poorer backgrounds (have a look at the findings in the Universities UK student debt project http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/studentdebt/ ) which is why bursaries are a band-aid at best. But... I still feel that they're better than nothing. The university will be recieving extra money from the higher fees the Scottish Exec has now levied, some of which is meant to go into the hardship funds pot. Probably a bit out of the scope of accomodation, but I'd be interested to know where this money is going and investigate the possibility that some of it could be ring-fenced to help with accomodation fees.

It might be interesting to see a breakdown of socio-economic class distributions of students entering (and indeed dropping out of) St Andrews and see if it correlates in any way to changes in hall fees.

Also, do you have data on the postgrad halls, Flayre? People on 2nd degrees (especially 2nd undergrad degrees) get a really rough ride in terms of financial support.

[hr]

Mmmmmmm, cake.
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37102114

[exnihilo]

Quoting James Shield from 03:09, 25th Mar 2007
Those might be rough figures, but they're still useful. Combined, there are 564 rooms in Albany and Fife Parks, and I doubt that's changed much. If roughly 3,000 people are in halls, then less than one in five are in what we would deem to be affordable accommodation. It also seems unacceptable that of a student population of roughly 7,000, the University provides cheap housing for fewer than 1 in 10.

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment: if I were the Principal I'd ask you what proportion of St Andrews' students you felt should be provided with cheap housing as you see that as 'unacceptable'. I'd also ask how you arrived at that figure. Do you have, alongside your hall fee data, substantiating data on student/parental income? Do we have more than 1 in 10 in genuine need of assistance or would the University by providing more be making some people happy who could easily afford to pay while damaging its own revenues to no real social gain?

I might even ask if you thought it might be more appropriate to prioritise people from lower income brackets into Fife/Albany Park from the day they start, rather than offering them as group lets go purely to a room by room basis - that would make a lot more places available because you'd weed out people who could afford a lot more but who went to Fife/Albany because a group of their friends were. I might even suggest designating one hall as a premium residence and hiking its fees higher still, offering a few more services as a way of attracting the much more affluent students to it, and essentially using that money to subsidise others - would that be acceptable?

Just a few questions you might want to consider.

[exnihilo]

Quoting Dave the Explosive Newt from 11:47, 25th Mar 2007
Also, do you have data on the postgrad halls, Flayre? People on 2nd degrees (especially 2nd undergrad degrees) get a really rough ride in terms of financial support.

Second undergrad degrees are tricky. They are not postgraduate degrees, and I very much see why R&BS does not treat them as such, there are only so many hall places and PhDs and Masters should certainly be given priority for those. However, the way they are dealt with seems a tad anomalous, in that a person on a second degree is treated pretty much like any first year as far as room allocation goes, which means they have as much chance as anyone of being in a shared room which has always seemed to me a bit odd - that someone who may be in their 20s, 30s, or even older could end up sharing a room with a 17 or 18 year old. Obviously, I wouldn't advocate special treatment for second undergrad degrees, but some sort of consideration would seem to be in order, particularly for those very, very few reading for a BD (Hons) with a view to entering the ministry, they are obliged to hold a first degree as a condition of entry and are, one would think, likely to be of a more mature, reflective nature than most first degree undergrads.

[teagreenaddict]

just to add to your argument; I am seriously looking to be unable to come back to St Andrews next year... and I'm a first year.

I live in a single room in McIntosh, due to health reasons. It costs me £4023 for the year, and of course, I cannot stay in vacations or anything. I also have reduced fees because I started off in a shared room in JBH for the first month or two.

I get full English maintanence grant; ie, my parents' combined income is below £17,000. I get a grant of £2700 I believe, and then a loan on top of that, and my fees are paid via a loan direct from the LEA to the uni.

...Here's the crux of the matter. Bear in mind, I get the maximum aid any English student can get to study, outside London.

I had to have my accomodation fees broken into three installments rather than two, as it would have wiped out both my loan, and my overdraft. This was huge hassle, and required numerous missions between SSS and Old Union, before they'd let me manage it.

I have two hundred pounds, for three months, to live off. Bear in mind, this also covers food on weekends, which costs around £12 per week. Add to that basic living costs, aka, sanitary living conditions (soap, toothpaste, etc) fruit to combat scurvy as I was originally a vegetarian for two years before trying to eat in halls, etc, etc, you cannot live off that amount. It is impossible, and I have the overdraft to prove it. I pay £70 each way to get home and back, which wipes out the majority of my loan excess each holiday which conveniently are in each three month 'slot'.

In my first semester, I worked a nine hour week at the weekends. I suffered because of this; all my work was crammed into the week, I could participate very little in uni life and was exhausted; because I attend church on a Sunday, I couldn't sleep at all. I came out of semester one with a £400 overdraft on my account, and that was living frugally. No going out whatsoever. I worked during the holiday to pay it off, and went back, exhausted.

Second semester, I don't have a job, despite trying to get one. I am currently £600 overdrawn, working to pay it off, and even working a six day week at home for Easter, Joyce in SS has worked out at the end of the year, I will be £900 at least overdrawn.

The uni gives bursaries of up to £400 per academic year for hardship students. You have to a) prove your parents cannot rather than will not, contribute to your education - I was told 'when you decide to send your children to uni, you agree implicitly to help pay for it'. Um. My parents have said, they paid for school, I pay for tertiary education. I get no help, beyond somewhere to live in the holidays, but because they will not help me, the uni refuses to help me either, 'to encourage parental support'.

b) you have to be at the edge of your overdraft. Um. If I'm £1400 in the red, and the bursary DOESN'T come through, what the hell do I do then? The paperwork and length of time means that you'd be screwed, particularly in the expensive accomodation outside of halls.

c) Very few students can have this.

Now, with rising accomodation costs, why can't the uni imitate places like Sussex? If you have expensive accomodation, as they do, they agree to give a bursary of £1000 to any student on maximum govt support, no questions asked, and a sliding scale for the rest, so you can afford to live there.

Just, fyi.

[MacMan]

The figures of the number of rooms needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, since just in Regs alone there are currently 2 twin rooms that are disused due to safety issues, and another room on the ground floor that was previously an office has now been turned into a twin room. There are also a few people here this year who are living in twin rooms by themselves. Apparantly these changes often happen just in hall and the detail never reaches ResBus.

Also, I have heard a variety of complaints about the difference in room size, especially within Regs. For example, there is a twin room on my corridor that is roughly the same size as my single room, yet it has furniture crammed in for two people. There is barely space to move about, let alone study. There is also a single room on the same corridor that very blatenly used to be a bathroom, (it is shown as one on the old floor plans), and there is hardly even space to fit a bed in there. Yet these unfortunate first years have to pay the same rent as people who have considerably larger and better rooms. It is fortunate however that in Regs the staff strive to supply these same level of quality in terms of furniture and fittings, and Regs is renound as the hall with the most modern furniture in the University, with most beds, desks, wardrobes etc. being only 1 or 2 years old.

From the finance point of view, I know several people who have struggled alot in halls due to low family income and have received little or no help from the University. This seems to be treated very much as a grey area that the Univeristy sweeps under the carpet as such. Maybe it is time to make these facts known by the higher management so that something can be done about these issues.

[Gubbins]

Quoting Cain from 11:35, 25th Mar 2007
For half of 4 years in Chattan one Study room was a bedroom for two or three girls, or there were people living in the games room.

During the period 2001-2004, the number of residents in Chattan increased from roughly 220 to 230, if anyone's keeping track of the figures.

As for the number of students who can't afford this, it's not entirely about being *able* to afford it, or having a high parental income. Many parents either can't or won't give their children money towards university, even if they are on high incomes. As teagreenaddict pointed out, some are there for medical reasons.

Furthermore, I seem to remember the rent rises of a few years ago were 'needed' to get the University out of a significant amount of debt. Bearing in mind that Hamilton Hall has recently been sold off, and that the halls of residence that St Andrews has form a very important part of the character of both the University and town, any reduction in rent may come as justification for closing down other central halls in favour of moving the students out of town.

[hr]

...but then again, that is only my opinion.

[James Shield]

Will: You're right - bursaries are something I hope to look at in collaboration with other members of the SRC.

Exnihilo: Anecdotal evidence such as the case on page 2 is useful for getting an idea of the degree to which students struggle financially, but our aim is to gather comprehensive quantitative data on what provisions we do have and what we ought to have. The Association may already have data on socioeconomic class, number of rooms in each hall, etc, but from an accommodation point of view, this needs to be pulled together if it hasn't been already. I'm really not sure whether accommodation should be allocated on the basis of income, but it's something that should be discussed (if, again, it hasn't been discussed already).

[exnihilo]

Did I offer anecdotal evidence? Are you perhaps confusing me with an adjacent post?

[James Shield]

Sorry, I wasn't clear about that. I was responding to this post:

Quoting exnihilo from 12:02, 25th Mar 2007
Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment: if I were the Principal I'd ask you what proportion of St Andrews' students you felt should be provided with cheap housing as you see that as 'unacceptable'. I'd also ask how you arrived at that figure.

I was agreeing with you, and saying that although anecdotal evidence such as teagreenaddict's post on page 2 is useful, what we really need is comprehensive quantitative data. This is something I'll work on once I'm back in town.

[JohnQPublic]

In the old days the University was massively in debt, and getting worse.

Also, if you don't like the fees, it's not like St Andrews Uni is the only university in the country. You chose to come here, and I am sure there are other comparable institutions where a 2:1 will serve you just as well where you could find cheaper accommodation.

Finally, try living in London.

Add it all up, and a "quit yer bitchin' " conclusion is the only one I can arrive at.

[exnihilo]

Quoting James Shield from 17:39, 25th Mar 2007
I was agreeing with you, and saying that although anecdotal evidence such as teagreenaddict's post on page 2 is useful, what we really need is comprehensive quantitative data. This is something I'll work on once I'm back in town.

Ah. Understood. Apologies.

[exnihilo]

Quoting JohnQPublic from 18:23, 25th Mar 2007
In the old days the University was massively in debt, and getting worse.

When were you thinking of, precisely?

[ShinyHappyPerson]

Quoting JohnQPublic from 18:23, 25th Mar 2007
In the old days the University was massively in debt, and getting worse.

Also, if you don't like the fees, it's not like St Andrews Uni is the only university in the country. You chose to come here, and I am sure there are other comparable institutions where a 2:1 will serve you just as well where you could find cheaper accommodation.

Finally, try living in London.

Add it all up, and a "quit yer bitchin' " conclusion is the only one I can arrive at.

I bet you would even lobby the Principal for Sky Plus in halls of residence...

[hr]

"its the best thing since instant mashed potato"

[teagreenaddict]

Quoting JohnQPublic from 18:23, 25th Mar 2007
In the old days the University was massively in debt, and getting worse.

Also, if you don't like the fees, it's not like St Andrews Uni is the only university in the country. You chose to come here, and I am sure there are other comparable institutions where a 2:1 will serve you just as well where you could find cheaper accommodation.

Finally, try living in London.

Add it all up, and a "quit yer bitchin' " conclusion is the only one I can arrive at.

Er. A) I chose between UEA and St Andrews. Obvious choice, no?

B) I'm aiming for a first. ^^ I know a bunch of others are as well, and I'm managing, even in first year.

C) Just because there are cheaper universities who offer 2:1s, what right does St Andrews to cater to rich, boring students, who pull Mummy and Daddy's strings to get in? I know personally of one girl who freely admits she didn't get in, until her Dad made a phone-call. I think that's sick, and it's twisted that an institution that promotes education should also by proxy promote bigotry, exclusivity and ignorance.

D) Tried London. Our Tescos is as expensive as central London, fact.

Add it all up, and a 'you might have money, but some of us work hard, study hard, and feel entitled to support from our uni, so shut the hell up' conclusion could be drawn. ^^

-- The anecdotal evidence stuff... I thought it'd help to point out the conditions of the uni's 'help' to students, ie, impossible to get.