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Re:

Postby David Bean on Wed May 16, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting Mehmsy from 23:23, 16th May 2007
Whoa now. A business/corporation/whatever's primary and only responsability is to its shareholders. Sure, companies should try and be eco-friendly and all that jazz; but at the end of the day they do that because it increases their customer base, or keeps from alienating groups.


Bullshit.

First of all, your claim that a business' sole responsibility is to its shareholders is a personal opinion of your own, not a fact. It's also inaccurate, since many businesses don't even have shareholders. What you mean is that businesses are accountable to their owners, which may be a private equity firm in the case of a private company (e.g. the Arcadia Group), its employees if the firm is a partnership (e.g. John Lewis), or the members if it is a co-operative (e.g. the Co-operative Group), but they are only shareholders in the case of a public company.

Your opinion on this matter is nevertheless one that I broadly agree with. However, the conclusions you draw from it couldn't be wider from the mark. As someone who actually works in business, I can tell you that if you think businesses, for instance, take steps to look after the environment - not that I said anything about this, but we'll use your own example for the sake of argument - solely because they want to protect their public image and thus be profitable, i.e. that it's all a sham, then you've fundamentally misunderstood the nature both of business and of human nature, and, I can also tell you, these are attitudes you're going to have to re-adjust if you hope to achieve any kind of responsible position in business yourself. Whilst I appreciate I work for a business (not a 'company', as it happens) that is uniquely placed to do this kind of thing as a result of its ownership model, already I've worked with people from backgrounds in all kinds of different businesses, and I can tell you that corporate social responsibility is taken very seriously indeed. So it should be.

Responsibility to the owners is also what makes customer focus of paramount importance. Business owners demand not just the quick return - they have too much capital invested for that - but a business model that is sustainable in the long term, and this requires a relentless focus on the needs of all customers, to the exclusion of nearly all other concerns. Treating a large group of customers who happen to be vegetarian with what could most charitably be described as casual indifference does not send out a positive message to the rest of the customer base at all, and is therefore a bad policy; customers would be right to wonder which of them the company would turn its hostility to next, and on what basis.

My point - and again, I'm referring to the way business actually works, not just the way you think is works - is therefore that Mars should be ashamed because its decision has already failed its customers, and because of that it has failed its owners too. It will be very interesting to see what effect this has on the direction the company takes in the immediate future.

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Re:

Postby Mehmsy on Thu May 17, 2007 6:37 am

if you hope to achieve any kind of responsible position in business yourself.


Fortunately, I don't. :)

My point - and again, I'm referring to the way business actually works, not just the way you think is works - is therefore that Mars should be ashamed because its decision has already failed its customers, and because of that it has failed its owners too. It will be very interesting to see what effect this has on the direction the company takes in the immediate future.


I don't see why getting on the bad side of vegetarians means 'failing' the rest of their customers. I think you overestimate the level of awareness the general public has.

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Re:

Postby bdw on Thu May 17, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting David Bean from 00:16, 17th May 2007 First of all, your claim that a business' sole responsibility is to its shareholders is a personal opinion of your own, not a fact. It's also inaccurate, since many businesses don't even have shareholders. What you mean is that businesses are accountable to their owners, which may be a private equity firm in the case of a private company (e.g. the Arcadia Group), its employees if the firm is a partnership (e.g. John Lewis), or the members if it is a co-operative (e.g. the Co-operative Group), but they are only shareholders in the case of a public company.


Begging forgiveness for pedantry but that’s not quite right either (though conceptually I agree with the “ownership” test and I defer to you in respect of co-operatives, which I understand are a whole different kettle of fish). Companies have a responsibility to themselves (having separate legal personality) as well as their owners/members/shareholders as a whole. This is why dividends are not declared unless there are distributable profits available and their directors sanction the distribution – a company’s duty to its shareholders as a whole should not always be paramount.
A private company has shareholders or members, depending on whether they are companies limited by shares or guarantee (generally they are the former). A public company is ultimately the same type of entity but it must be owned in shares and is permitted to issue shares to the public. A private equity firm does business by becoming a majority shareholder in a public or private company (hence the “equity” part). A partnership however is just a collection of two or more individuals carrying out an enterprise together and they only owe fiduciary duties to the other partners, not any employees of the firm. Where a partnership is to employ non-directors and they wish to minimize their unlimited legal exposure (unless the partnership is an LLP), they will usually establish a company limited by shares to administer these employment contracts.
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Re:

Postby David Bean on Thu May 17, 2007 7:13 pm

Okay, fair enough, I realise I was over-simplifying, and I'm fairly sure the ame applies to co-operatives as well. I suppose the distinction I was making is that whatever legal obligations a company may have - e.g. to remain solvent where possible, or to abide by regulatory requirements - its primary moral duty, in the sense of its duty to do the best it can by, is to its owners, and because of the capital they have invested in the business they have a vested interest in its long-term development.

Interests, for example, that tell against a company making a decision that will outrage a section of its customers on the basis of hoping nobody else will notice.

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Re:

Postby oddly familiar on Thu May 17, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting beeny from 23:12, 16th May 2007
Quoting Idealist from 22:04, 16th May 2007
I don't really fancy tucking into a Mars bar now I know what its actually made of!


Oh and while you're at it, there's seaweed in toothpaste. Ewwwwww. *sigh*
seaweed is nice

Did you really think chocolate was all natural? That it didn't contain nasty things?


Bring on the chemicals! Tap it straight into my veins!

Ahem...

So are the other mars-produced chocolates like galaxy going to have meat products in them too?

I'm no vegetarian (in fact, I'm a chocoholic carnivore - seriously, have you ever tried KFB spicy beef pizza with Dairy Milk on it? - You should) but I find it weird that there's meat products in chocolate. It just doesn't seem right somehow.

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Re:

Postby oddly familiar on Thu May 17, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting oddly familiar from 20:30, 17th May 2007
Quoting beeny from 23:12, 16th May 2007
Quoting Idealist from 22:04, 16th May 2007
I don't really fancy tucking into a Mars bar now I know what its actually made of!


Oh and while you're at it, there's seaweed in toothpaste. Ewwwwww. *sigh*


seaweed is nice

Did you really think chocolate was all natural? That it didn't contain nasty things?


Bring on the chemicals! Tap it straight into my veins!

Ahem...

So are the other mars-produced chocolates like galaxy going to have meat products in them too?

I'm no vegetarian (in fact, I'm a chocoholic carnivore - seriously, have you ever tried KFB spicy beef pizza with Dairy Milk on it? - You should) but I find it weird that there's meat products in chocolate. It just doesn't seem right somehow.

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Re:

Postby sweet on Thu May 17, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting Mehmsy from 23:23, 16th May 2007

This is why vegetarians piss me off. Billions of people are starving and there they sit, being sanctimonious about the food they're fortunate enough to have in front of them.



What?! Right, you grow a field of, say, maize. Now, you can feed the maize to person. Or, you can feed the maize to a cow. Cow wanders about, shits, maybe keeps itself warm, uses a fraction of the energy to make bones, muscle, fat. You have wasted lots of lovely maize energy on the cow. Growing an animal for food is much more inefficent than growing the equivalent quantity of bean/veggie calories and protein.

Put it another way, if we grew more vegetable protein and less meat there'd be more calories to go round. So the only people who can legitimately make the "feed the world with our diet" argument are, um, vegetarians.
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Re:

Postby Mehmsy on Thu May 17, 2007 9:52 pm

The supposed efficiency of a vegetarian diet has absolutely nothing to do with the pedantry of the whole idea that you're complaining about something which really is a comfort and a luxury. Furthermore, think about it: do you think people would be starving if they had access to maize instead of meat? No, I don't think so.

A cow doesn't just wander about aimlessly and drool--it can be used to produce milk, till soil (to grow more maize to feed more cows), produce food, and once dead its skin can be used to make leather and clothes.

... Maize can be used to make baskets. I think I'll stick with the cow.

Unfortunately, said diet is not only less nutritious, but is also harder to keep fresh and store. Not only that, but if a diet's worth was calculated only by it's calorific content, then we'd be fine by living on candy bars.

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Re:

Postby fluffy on Thu May 17, 2007 10:02 pm

if the world were to instigate a vegetarian diet rather than a carniverous one, it would save a lot of trouble. It takes much more room to grow crops to feed animals, graze them, then time to kill them and so on, whereas if we grew veggie crops it would go further and would stop world hunger, global warming (because we wouldn't have to cut down trees to graze animals and so on)
I know this is vague, I read the article somewhere and I can't remember where. Anyone know where I read it?

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Re:

Postby Steveo on Thu May 17, 2007 10:12 pm

The problem here, as I see it, is that the majority of vegetarians I know would advocate organic growing of this produce, should it happen. There is one problem with this - pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers are fantastic. That's why we use them. To meet the world’s food needs organically would take 6x the current land used for agriculture.

A bit off the topic, but that's nothing new for this place.

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Re:

Postby Mehmsy on Thu May 17, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting fluffy from 23:02, 17th May 2007
if the world were to instigate a vegetarian diet rather than a carniverous one, it would save a lot of trouble. It takes much more room to grow crops to feed animals, graze them, then time to kill them and so on, whereas if we grew veggie crops it would go further and would stop world hunger, global warming (because we wouldn't have to cut down trees to graze animals and so on)
I know this is vague, I read the article somewhere and I can't remember where. Anyone know where I read it?

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dev ksereis, alla eimai trella erotebmevei mazi sou..


... Uh-huh. Problem is, if you wanted to feed the whole world with crops you'd easily run out of soil fertile enough to actually grow plants. Animal husbandry grew out of the necessity of cultures living in mountainous regions to get food on a regular basis without being able to grow crops. The whole world would starve if we only lived on plants. Not just that, but it would be an atrociously unhealthy diet and we'd all die. It'd serve us right if we were stupid enough to follow through with a plan like that, though.

You should read up on agricultural facts as well: you can't just permanently use a plot of soil to grow food on--you need to rotate crops and let the soil regain its nutrients and other chemicals in order to have enough of them to grow more plants. You'd stop cutting down trees to give animals more room to graze on, but you'd have to cut down trees to have more farmable land. Oh, and cutting trees down is not the only (and greatest) cause for global warming (but that's an entirely different argument).

So in short, that is a spectacularly stupid idea and whoever wrote that article is criminally insane and ought to be shot.

Edit: and what Steveo said.

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Re:

Postby novium on Thu May 17, 2007 10:22 pm

In wine at least, they aren't additives. It's a fining agent. it's kind of a way to filter a bunch of undesirable stuff out of the wine. They use gelatin as well, sometimes, and egg whites...it does not remain in the wine.
Quoting rob 'f*ck off' wine boy from 22:46, 16th May 2007
Quoting Idealist from 22:04, 16th May 2007
Aside from the whole excluding veggis and people who can't eat meat for other reasons...does no one else find it quite disturbing that they have decided to use the lining of a calf's stomach in the manufacture of chocolate?? I'm not a veggi but it really doesn't seem right....its chocolate!

I don't really fancy tucking into a Mars bar now I know what its actually made of!

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[s]"You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time"[/s]


Yeah exactly. And that shit they chuck into beers and wines...it makes me wonder if it would taste better without it (my intuition suggests that it would). I doubt that these additives make for a product that would equal a purer variant.


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Re:

Postby maenad on Thu May 17, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting Mehmsy from 23:54, 16th May 2007
Quoting maenad from 23:38, 16th May 2007
Edit: Mehmsy, just as Masterfoods not switching to rennet isn't going to 'save' any animals, being less picky about our food/avoiding 'sanctimonious' vegetarianism ain't gonna feed the starving children in Africa.


Of course, but it feels like less of a double-standard. To me, at least.


I'm not sure what 'double standard' you're referring to. Although talking of double standards ... I don't understand why you feel so much hatred towards vegetarians. You seem to be angered by their "sanctimonious" attitude towards their diet because there are "far more important things to be worried about". Yet you yourself, rather than focusing on racism, genocide or something similar, choose to be "pissed off" by herbivores. Why? Vegetarianism doesn't threaten you in the slightest. It's never occured to me to chase a non-vegetarian around with an aubergine saying, 'Just try it! It's natural! You'll like it!'.

I also use "sanctimonious" in quote marks because I doubt there are any more obnoxious vegetarians than there are obnoxious meat-eaters. Believe me, I can't stand vegetarians who like to make snotty comments at/about people eating meat around them. I blame them for the reason so many carnivores like to wave meat in my face and say, 'Ooooooooh look, I'm eating a cow, I'm eating extra for you, hahaha, I'm going to upset you now!!!'. Dude, I don't care. Your body, your choice.

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Re:

Postby Guest on Thu May 17, 2007 11:55 pm

The fact is meat tastes good.

Pig tastes good, pork chops taste good and a pig is a clever animal.
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Re:

Postby Mehmsy on Fri May 18, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting maenad from 00:25, 18th May 2007
Quoting Mehmsy from 23:54, 16th May 2007
Quoting maenad from 23:38, 16th May 2007
Edit: Mehmsy, just as Masterfoods not switching to rennet isn't going to 'save' any animals, being less picky about our food/avoiding 'sanctimonious' vegetarianism ain't gonna feed the starving children in Africa.


Of course, but it feels like less of a double-standard. To me, at least.


I'm not sure what 'double standard' you're referring to. Although talking of double standards ... I don't understand why you feel so much hatred towards vegetarians. You seem to be angered by their "sanctimonious" attitude towards their diet because there are "far more important things to be worried about". Yet you yourself, rather than focusing on racism, genocide or something similar, choose to be "pissed off" by herbivores. Why? Vegetarianism doesn't threaten you in the slightest. It's never occured to me to chase a non-vegetarian around with an aubergine saying, 'Just try it! It's natural! You'll like it!'.


I wouldn't call it hatred or anger--I just get frustrated when people make stupid choices in life (well, choices that are stupid in my opinion). And I'm one of those people who believe that a vegetarian diet is not as healthy as a standard balanced one. I also believe that the reason most vegetarians choose to be vegetarians is silly.

So, there we are.

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Re:

Postby Haunted on Fri May 18, 2007 9:08 am

Being a vegetarian does tend to give people a particular "holier than thou" attitude. But not all of them are like that.
There are some who truly believe its the right thing and are not so in-your-face about it. Though they seem to be in the minority.

It is more difficult for a vegatarian to maintain a healthy diet (it's hard to get zinc, iron and B vitamins from plants) and it can be damaging to young children. The energy requirements of the human brain are what led to eating meat in the first place (or more exact, the eating of meat led to the energy for a bigger brain to develop) all those years ago.

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Re:

Postby oddly familiar on Fri May 18, 2007 10:52 am

I'm beginning to see certain parallels with the bible thread here.... atheists and non-vegetarians eh?

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Re:

Postby maenad on Fri May 18, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Mehmsy from 09:09, 18th May 2007
Quoting maenad from 00:25, 18th May 2007
Quoting Mehmsy from 23:54, 16th May 2007
[quote]Quoting maenad from 23:38, 16th May 2007
Edit: Mehmsy, just as Masterfoods not switching to rennet isn't going to 'save' any animals, being less picky about our food/avoiding 'sanctimonious' vegetarianism ain't gonna feed the starving children in Africa.


Of course, but it feels like less of a double-standard. To me, at least.


I'm not sure what 'double standard' you're referring to. Although talking of double standards ... I don't understand why you feel so much hatred towards vegetarians. You seem to be angered by their "sanctimonious" attitude towards their diet because there are "far more important things to be worried about". Yet you yourself, rather than focusing on racism, genocide or something similar, choose to be "pissed off" by herbivores. Why? Vegetarianism doesn't threaten you in the slightest. It's never occured to me to chase a non-vegetarian around with an aubergine saying, 'Just try it! It's natural! You'll like it!'.


I wouldn't call it hatred or anger--I just get frustrated when people make stupid choices in life (well, choices that are stupid in my opinion). And I'm one of those people who believe that a vegetarian diet is not as healthy as a standard balanced one. I also believe that the reason most vegetarians choose to be vegetarians is silly.

So, there we are.[/quote]

Well, each to their own. I can think of few reasons people become vegetarian which are "silly", whether it's because they disagree with the way meat is raised and slaughtered or they just don't like the taste. Whilst there are vegetarians who "don't like vegetables" and live on a diet of pasta and tomato sauce, I have found since I turned vegetarian that I actually pay more attention to what I eat. I haven't felt less healthy since I went veggie, and really I'd have to try very hard indeed to become malnourished. I also have to bite my tongue when some of my meat-eating friends go on about a 'balanced diet' whilst tucking into 52% reconstituted chicken "chicken slices" or a plate of Tesco value sausages. Why decide that all vegetarians are by definition less healthy than omnivores?

I don't tend to get into debates about vegetarianism because I'm not out to "convert" anyone, and whatever other people think my diet is my choice, "so there". But it's a bit ... well, it's just rather odd to come across people who will automatically look down on me for being "silly", when I've made a perfectly valid choice about my life. Live and let live, eh?

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Re:

Postby Lovely Goat on Fri May 18, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting fluffy from 22:02, 15th May 2007
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2079615,00.html

my life is over. no more mars, milky way, galaxy, bounty, twix, maltesers.. at least i will be thin and miserable though..

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No more Mars Bars! sniff. At least there's still Cadbury.
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Re:

Postby Lovely Goat on Fri May 18, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting Gealle from 22:06, 15th May 2007
Possibly because the manufacturers are comfortable with the fact that it is within man's instinct to eat meat, and not being guilt ridden or intimidated by the extremist elements of animal rights nutters out there. A fine day for industry, if you ask me.

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Perhaps you were being a little facetious? Anyway, I'm not an animal rights nutter - I don't attempt to spread my opinions, let alone trash property, but I don't eat meat for ethical reasons. It would therefore be entirely hypocritical and non-sensical for me to eat a Mars Bar containing any meat products, so I will no longer be eating Mars Bars. For someone who liked the damn things, that's a shame. That is all.

And that goes for the later discussions about business, too. I have no idea whether a business should attempt not to exclude a small number of its customers or not, or who it has most responsibility towards, and I guess if they want to put meat products in, that's their right. But on a personal level, I can't* eat Mars Bars any more, and that, to me, is a shame.

*can't = choose not to according to my own beliefs. But that's just too long winded to be saying all the time.
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