British Oath of Allegiance

[TCT]

Quoting Odysseus from 19:40, 11th Mar 2008
I'd prefer to swear an oath of allegiance to Alex Salmond.





*Awaits rabid Unionist response*

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Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

You might as well swear allegiance to a fried egg. It's just as slippery but has less cholesterol.

[Hevelius]

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 23:23, 11th Mar 2008
From kindergarten through the 5th grade I said the Pledge every day. Starting in 6th grade and up through 12th, it was read over the PA system every morning, and we just stood with our hands over our hearts and eyes on the flag, which was in every classroom.

Please excuse my curiosity, but did everyone always take this seriously? Did anyone refuse to say it / put hand on heart? What would have been the likely consequences of such actions?

[munchingfoo]

guantanamo bay

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“Argue with an idiot long enough and people will fail to see the difference”

[LonelyPilgrim]

Please excuse my curiosity, but did everyone always take this seriously? Did anyone refuse to say it / put hand on heart? What would have been the likely consequences of such actions?

I think it's fair to say that by high school even those of us who could honestly be considered patriotic thought it was rather silly. I don't know of anyone refusing to do it, though. Had someone done so there would have been no official consequences, so long as they didn't make a scene. The *social* consequences could have been rather severe - this is the American Midwest, after all, land of the Good Ol' Boys.

In my opinion, having a Pledge of Allegience that is recited every day doesn't instill patriotism. Rather it weakens the idea of a solemn oath, I think and makes people less likely to trust each others word. But that's just a theory.

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Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides

[Odysseus]

Quoting TCT from 23:31, 11th Mar 2008

You might as well swear allegiance to a fried egg. It's just as slippery but has less cholesterol.

I'd rather swear allegiance to a fried egg than any figurehead, to be honest.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[novium]

I can't remember anyone refusing to do it. if anyone didn't take it seriously, it was just usual kid silliness, and not a statement or anything. Anyone acting up would be treated like anyone acting up at any other point during class (e.g. ignored, asked not to do that, scolded a bit, or maybe if it was part of a larger behavior problem, whatever usually went along with that).

Quoting Hevelius from 23:31, 11th Mar 2008

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 23:23, 11th Mar 2008
From kindergarten through the 5th grade I said the Pledge every day. Starting in 6th grade and up through 12th, it was read over the PA system every morning, and we just stood with our hands over our hearts and eyes on the flag, which was in every classroom.

Please excuse my curiosity, but did everyone always take this seriously? Did anyone refuse to say it / put hand on heart? What would have been the likely consequences of such actions?

[hr]

Neither the storms of crisis, nor the breezes of ambition could ever divert him, either by hope or by fear, from the course that he had chosen

[novium]

I'm not sure if I agree with you... but then again, having the pledge of allegience daily stopped way before high school means that my experience was different. it never got to the point of being an issue from being too cool or smart for it.
I don't think such a thing would really work in the UK, but I think it's a fine thing that the kids here say the pledge of alliegence. I see it as part of the greater republican mythology that allows a huge, diverse nation to believe it is a cohesive whole, but also creates people who truly believe in the ideals. So much of the US system depends on people actually believing in the semi-sacredness of a piece of paper and the idea of republican government, etc.

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 23:52, 11th Mar 2008


In my opinion, having a Pledge of Allegience that is recited every day doesn't instill patriotism. Rather it weakens the idea of a solemn oath, I think and makes people less likely to trust each others word. But that's just a theory.

[hr]

Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides

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Neither the storms of crisis, nor the breezes of ambition could ever divert him, either by hope or by fear, from the course that he had chosen

[Guest]

Quoting the Empress from 17:11, 11th Mar 2008
My 'British' identity lies in apathy, a craving for disappointment and a deep-seated need to complain about the weather.

Full marks for the Bill Bailey quote

[Campbell]

there is no way i would have done it, because i have no sense of national pride or allegiance and think the american pledge is absolute insanity. and since from a fairly young age i refused to participate in christian assemblies (not by making a fuss or anyone knowing, i just wouldn't say anything or do anything and nobody really noticed) i think i would have cottoned onto this fairly young as well, even if i didn't really understand it. certainly by the time i left school there is no fucking way.

and based on going to a shitheap of a school in western scotland for most of my education i think i can fairly confidently say that very few people who went there would participate in it, though largely for reasons of baseless xenophobia which nevertheless are very strongly felt in many places north of the borde, whatever anyone says.

[LonelyPilgrim]

Quoting campbell from 18:26, 12th Mar 2008
there is no way i would have done it, because i have no sense of national pride or allegiance and think the american pledge is absolute insanity. and since from a fairly young age i refused to participate in christian assemblies (not by making a fuss or anyone knowing, i just wouldn't say anything or do anything and nobody really noticed) i think i would have cottoned onto this fairly young as well, even if i didn't really understand it. certainly by the time i left school there is no fucking way.

Had you lived here, in the US, you would have a different perspective due to having been raised in an entirely different culture. Suffice to say that had you magically found yourself here at age x you would have refused.

And, 'absolute insanity'? I'll admit it's a wee bit silly, but seriously? Just a bit of hyperbole there, no? No? Come on? At least justify that remark...

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Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides

[Hennessy]

People seem to overreact over this issue. It's just a pledge, what are you afraid of being caught out by? Surely a simple "I love my country" isnt so hard? If it is then it's more to do with you than with the country, and perhaps, indeed, you would be better off elsewhere if you can't bring yourself to say you even like modern Britain, but its not an automatic step from a pledge or oath to the forced deportation of thousands of dissenters.
Anyway it wouldnt apply to you, but to your children, and it might just teach them to have some respect and pride in their community, unlike the youth of today.

[hr]

"What happened to Spoon?"
"There is no Spoon"
Dog Soldiers

[Al]

How would forcing someone to swear an oath teach them respect and pride in their country?

[the Empress]

Are you like, 100 years old? And were I to be cursed with children, I would refuse to allow them to take such a stupid oath. One's allegiance should always to be one's conscience. For example, my great-grandmother took her children out of the school every 'Empire Day' to avoid just such blind faith (much to their embarressment, mind).

Quoting Hennessy from 00:32, 13th Mar 2008

Anyway it wouldnt apply to you, but to your children, and it might just teach them to have some respect and pride in their community, unlike the youth of today.

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[Campbell]

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 22:06, 12th Mar 2008

And, 'absolute insanity'? I'll admit it's a wee bit silly, but seriously? Just a bit of hyperbole there, no? No? Come on? At least justify that remark...

i wouldn't give a shit usually but I don't think you can argue against the fact that blind american nationalism has allowed many many bad things to happen of late, and the daily promotion of it in schools is not neccessarily healthy. to me, it's an entirely alien idea. my comments are just based on a friend of mine i have in georgia, who i met on a school exchange so i have seen it all first hand a few times.

from my perspective it is insane, no hyperbole, that not just blind nationalism and religious obedience are taught and enforced every day, but the way in which it's done, with all the fetishism of the american flag and hand on your heart nonsense. it is the sort of thing that happens in oppresive regimes. but i suppose so are foreign detention/torture camps, a head of state wearing military uniform, government controlled press, etc etc. i'm not saying it's some hugely evil practice but i think it is utterly ridiculous and negative.

it's like the mix of religion and politics that is not challenged, or the 'american dream' concept, which is nowadays (i'd say) far more realistic in europe than it is in the states... i just don't fucking get that place at all

[fat bastard]

Quoting Hennessy from 00:32, 13th Mar 2008
Surely a simple "I love my country" isnt so hard? If it is then it's more to do with you than with the country, and perhaps, indeed, you would be better off elsewhere if you can't bring yourself to say you even like modern Britain"

what? where the fuck am i supposed to go? just becuase i have no respect whatsoever for britain nationally or culturally means I should leave?

[LonelyPilgrim]

Quoting campbell from 02:39, 13th Mar 2008
i wouldn't give a shit usually but I don't think you can argue against the fact that blind american nationalism has allowed many many bad things to happen of late, and the daily promotion of it in schools is not neccessarily healthy. to me, it's an entirely alien idea. my comments are just based on a friend of mine i have in georgia, who i met on a school exchange so i have seen it all first hand a few times.

from my perspective it is insane, no hyperbole, that not just blind nationalism and religious obedience are taught and enforced every day, but the way in which it's done, with all the fetishism of the american flag and hand on your heart nonsense. it is the sort of thing that happens in oppresive regimes. but i suppose so are foreign detention/torture camps, a head of state wearing military uniform, government controlled press, etc etc. i'm not saying it's some hugely evil practice but i think it is utterly ridiculous and negative.

it's like the mix of religion and politics that is not challenged, or the 'american dream' concept, which is nowadays (i'd say) far more realistic in europe than it is in the states... i just don't fucking get that place at all

Thank you for reminding me why I was glad to leave the UK. Every once in a while I get to missing St Andrews and then somebody on here reminds me how much I hated people telling what my own country is *really* like.

You have a friend in Georgia and you've been here for a bit? Good for you! Clearly you know all there is to know about American culture. Nevermind that I've lived here, excepting four years in Scotland, my entire life - and that in a state far more conservative than anywhere in the modern South, excepting perhaps West Virginia.

We still have far far more liberty in the US than you do in the UK. Our press is free - no Official Secrets Act here. We have real seperation of church and state - why in the world you think you have that there considering the official relationship of the CoE and CoS to the government I'll never understand. And if you think European life embodies the American Dream better than American life, you have an incorrect notion of what the American Dream really is because European attitudes about the relationship of the citizen to the state are anathema to the American ideal.

Yeah, we screw up... there's a lot of things wrong with America and I've commented on what they are enough times on The Sinner that I don't think anyone can call me blindly patriotic - but I'm not unique. I don't know anyone, of the thousands of Americans I know, who is happy with how things have gone over the last 8 years. The news polls say about 12% of the country is pleased, but bugger me if I know where to find those people.

Furthermore, of the hundreds of people I went to school with who recited the Pledge and put their hands on their hearts to the flag every day, and of the thousands of people I know who do so at baseball games and whatnot, I can honestly say I've only met ONE, just ONE, person who I'd say suffered from blind nationalism.

What is so wrong with patriotism, anyway? A nation is a society, a community, and like all communities it depends upon a shared sense of identity and purpose to survive. You don't like Britain, fine... leave, find somewhere you do like. I don't believe in blind loyalty to the community you happen to be born in, but I do believe that if you are going to live somewhere, as an adult, you have some moral obligation to live somewhere you can be supportive of - and if that new places changes you can move again. The notion that loyalty is owed only to the self is half of what's wrong with Western Civilisation today, we are social animals and we are only noble (not to mention happy) when we rise above our own narcissism.

If you want to talk about what's *wrong* with America, fine. I'll show you my list if you show me yours. But do try not to call my country a military theocracy... it's far more true of your country than it is of mine, and it's offensive either way.



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Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides

[novium]

Quoting campbell from 02:39, 13th Mar 2008
i just don't fucking get that place at all

That is apparent. Unfortunately, with your mentality, i fear that trying to explain it all, and how one must look at a different culture/country through a different framework would be pointless.

[hr]

Neither the storms of crisis, nor the breezes of ambition could ever divert him, either by hope or by fear, from the course that he had chosen

[rob 'f*ck off' wine boy]

Dear Christ, did someone criticise America? Appalling. God forbid anyone should ever say anything about Britain. Oh wait...

[WashingtonIrving]

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 03:40, 13th Mar 2008

The notion that loyalty is owed only to the self is half of what's wrong with Western Civilisation today, we are social animals and we are only noble (not to mention happy) when we rise above our own narcissism.

[hr]

Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides

Its hard to feel part of something you are manifestly not an important element in. Its not as if people aren't loyal to their families, or local communities, or circles of friends. The problem isn't really with people. The modern world positively encourages a lack of loyalty to the state, and its probably in the nature of any modern state to do so.

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"I said farewell honey, I'll see you Judgment Day"

[Humphrey]

Quoting rob 'f*ck off' wine boy from 10:45, 13th Mar 2008
Dear Christ, did someone criticise America?

The USA is the best country in the world, period. This is because stuff like this happens the whole time...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... 1&catnum=0

and this exists...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06211/709125-37.stm

The UK should be ashamed of itself. We used to be the world leaders in eccentricity and now we are becoming as boring as Scandinavia.

At least we still have David Icke.

Irrelevant Quote

"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."

Frank Zappa

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http://humphreyclarke.blogspot.com/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/humphrey_clarke/