60+ students occupy uni building in protest

[Guest]

It's working!

Olmert just came out with a press release along the lines of:

"I thought i knew what i was doing, but then i heard that a few pretentious students were protesting several thousand miles away about a situation which they have no power to help or change in any way, and it got me thinking, maybe we shouldn't be in Gaza"

thats a lie, the protest is ridiculous

[Duggeh]

Best thing the university can do is completely ignore them.

Why?

Because of the reasons I elaborated on.

Move classes and events to take place there to other venues.

No class or events are scheduled for a week.

And so after that week, move the events. That one is simple to work out.

If you ignore the screaming child, they eventually calm down. Make sure to cut off the electricity to the room too, or else bill the ringleaders for their consumption afterwards.

Besides how inappropriate it would be to ignore the voices of 70 odd students and staff overall, the students have shown their commitment to the occupation. They have stated their intention to stay indefinitely, and they will until they are satisfied that things have changed significantly. The university is currently happy for the students to be in the hall so there is no need for the 'ringleaders' to be billed, nor would cutting the electricity be very diplomatic or necessary in any way.

No more inappropriate than the conduct being displayed in this "protest". If you are all going to stay there until your frankly insane, racist and unworkable demands are met, you'll be there for years.

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It's kinda funny.

What is? The fact that the students on the street/uni staff/groups of people all over the country/media are showing overwhelming support and interest in the occupation and the issues it raises despite the ill-conceived, rampantly inaccurate knee-jerk reaction of people too lazy to remove themselves from the comfort of internet anonymity to engage with the students involved rather than spout cowardly baseless opinions on TheSinner? Yes it is funny, it's laughably pathetic.

THE SWEET SWEET DELICIOUS IRONY OF YOUR LAMBASTING PROCLAMATIONS ABOUT INTERNET ANONYMITY FROM A GUEST ACCOUNT HAR DE HAR DE FUCKIN HAR. /caps

¬ _¬

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The irony of "Guest" fighting nobly for a cause yet not having the courage of his/her convictions to use his/her own name.

Is it just one person? Those who show solidarity are free to comment. People are standing as one, under one name.

Then pick AN OFFICIAL SINNER USERNAME, and give the login details to those who wish to contribute here from the protest in that manner. That means that those who really don't want their usual sinner usernames associated with this laughable debacle can post via that account safe in the knowledge that nobody will know it was them. Whilst it will also allow a line to be drawn between "Guest" which is actually the protestors and "Guest" which is other people posting to make mischief or to misrepresent. Given the forthright stupidity of some of the "Guest" postings, I'd assume that the latter has happened already.

As an added bonus, it would help facilitate multi-quoting to one post, a basic skill that seems to be lost on you thusfar.

One outcome of this is that my water brand of choice from now on is Eden Springs.

Feel free. But be under no illusion that your brand of choice deprives the citizens of Palestine in favour of Israeli. Simple as that.

Fuck off, every sinle decision like that deprives someone of something else. If I drink Coke, it deprives Pepsi, if I drink Buxton, it deprives Highland Spring, if I drink tap water, it deprives the soft drinks companies. In drinking Eden Springs I no more deprive the people of Palestine than in drinking Tennents Lager I deprive the people of Newcastle because I'm not drinking Brown Ale.

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Oh btw 777 your post was deleted because it an insult followed by wishing the protesters to starve to death. It didn't add anything to the discussion and seemed designed to provoke. Mods reserve the right to remove trolling posts. If I've got that wrong, someone please correct me.

Since I did not have a chance to read the post, I cannot comment fully. I would however point out that it would probably have been best if you had left it for another moderator to deal with given that you have a vested interest in this topic.

I am wholeheartedly with foo on this one. Dom your role as a Mod should be self-curtailed for this thread. The Sinner may be a small cesspit of bile abuse slander hate and stupidity, but lets allow all sides to throw that sort of monkey shit equally.

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I make no comment about the rights and wrongs of Eden Springs but the Golan Heights are Syrian not Palestinian. The majority of the non-Israeli residents are Druze.

Indeed.

I'd also like to know where the University is supposed to find £100,000 a year for these racist scholarships? If it was required to capitalise these scholarships (which might be required by law) then it needs to set aside at least £2 million. Any contributions from the protesters?

Racist they are, and more. Positive discrimination is far more insidious and odious than negative discrimination, because it is injustice performed in the mock up of equality.

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To the rather prolific Guest: would you please consider registering?

Thanks...

[/quote]

May I suggest that the posting by unregistered and guest users be prohibited in this thread. Actually, can I demand it? If this thing is as serious as they want us to believe it is, then whatever small waving withered appendage they've got to come and belittle and berate us here for not being in tune with their goals should have a concrete representation for us to reply to.

[Cain]

They agree to those demands so the Uni obviously thinks that these should be provided. The bills are not our responsibility. If the Uni were to deny <heating, electricity and toilets> to us it would not only reflect very badly on them but it would also be unnecessarily hostile and a breach of human rights.

In what way does it deny protesters their human rights? I assume that the door is open and they're free to walk out and go wherever they want to.

Does the University have a duty of care to make sure that people who are using their facilities for unsanctioned and unofficial events are fed and watered? If so, I might just invite myself in to the new principal's house and ask her to put the kettle on.

[What?]

For my views see Duggeh above. Well done my friend.

[creepy old man]

In response to Blueswater, I agree with some of what you say. The university shouldn't be forced to take a position on a complicated, controversial and frankly irrelevant (to the interests of the university) issue like this. But people shouldn't be expected to decide on a university based on what brand of bottled water they provide. Personally I think the Eden Springs thing, even though I don't know anything about it at all, seems to be the most (possibly only) valid point being made by the protesters. As students, we're all part of this university, and it doesn't seem that ridiculous to me that students should be able to ask certain things of their university. Asking for vending machines to sell a politically neutral brand of bottled water (or fair trade beverages at the Union, or some other brand of cola than Coke, etc.) isn't an outrageous demand at all. There's no need to boycott an entire institution if the possibility exists to improve the institution from within. Saying these people should leave the university is like saying that anti-war protesters should leave the UK if they don't support the decisions of the government.

As for what Guest said, the demands are political, at least they sound pretty political to me. Asking the university to condemn the acts of Israel as criminal is asking for it to take a pretty specific stance, and I don't see why the university should have to take a stance on the issue. The university is not a human rights organisation or an international charity, and shouldn't be expected to act like one. It has to take into account the interests of both pro-Palestinian students (as well as Palestinian students, although I've never encountered one here) as well as Israeli students (or pro-Israel Jewish students). Personally, judging from what I've heard, the university has responded pretty responsibly, and in more or less the exact manner that I would like them to. Giving scholarships to people who live in areas affected by violence is a great idea, but creating ten such scholarships per year would be a huge financial burden, and it would be descriminatory as well. Demanding that the university provide such scholarships is ridiculous in my opinion, but perhaps the suggestion will be remembered and some sort of scholarships will be considered under different circumstances, without the university having to adopt affirmative action.

As for what I said about activist groups here, my opinion may be a bit outdated but it is certainly well-founded and based on my own frustrating personal experiences. And I repeat that I am not sure who was involved in planning this particular protest, so my comment may be totally irrelevant. In any case, a self-righteous attitude is not a good thing to have when dealing with PR and trying to convince people to join your cause. Instead of insulting people on this website for being (accurately) politically elitist and annoyingly apathetic (while at the same time self-righteous), having a less hostile attitude could prove potentially more welcoming and convincing.

[James Shield]

Message to all students from the Students’ Association


In light of the recent student occupation of Lower College Hall by the St Andrews Solidarity with Palestine Campaign, the Students’ Association’s response is as follows.

The Students’ Association supports every student’s right to peaceful protest. We acknowledge the conscientious nature of this protest and the respect the protesters have shown towards University property. They have also been respectful and understanding in all conversations with representatives of the University and the Association.

The Students’ Association seeks to resolve the issues raised by the Campaign through co-operation and agreement between all parties. The Association will be negotiating with the University on the issues set out below, and has invited a member of the Campaign to attend all meetings on these matters.

In our experience, constant dialogue is the best way to resolve issues that arise between students and the University, and there are several established routes through which the discussion can take place. These methods of communication are available – through the Students’ Association – to any individual student or group with concerns about any aspect of the University.

The following issues will be explored:

1. The University currently has an ethical investment policy. Our view is that there should also be a very clear ethical policy on the procurement of goods purchased by the University.

2. The Association requests information on the University Teaching and Research Ethics Committee (UTREC), especially regarding its remit and the potential for student involvement in decision-making. It is important to mention that representatives of the Association are already heavily involved in high level University decision-making bodies, up to and including the University Court. We are, however, mindful that this discussion will likely centre around issues of confidentiality for individual researchers. The Association takes no view at present on the University’s relationship with BAE Systems, but would support the Campaign’s request for further details on this as we would support all legitimate requests for information from any student group.

3. The Association believes that as a University that is very international in its demographic and outlook, St Andrews should seek to aid and support those students who, for whatever reason, would not ordinarily have access to Higher Education. We strongly believe that the establishment of a scholarship programme for students whose studies have been interrupted by conflict would be an extremely positive move for the University. These should be in addition to existing scholarship programmes.

4. The Association encourages the Campaign to nominate a relevant charity to become one of the Association’s six nominated charities. The list of charities nominated by students will be put to a cross-campus vote for the first time this year. We would also encourage all students to consider which charities they believe the Association should support, and make nominations. Further detail can be obtained from the Charities Campaign Convener, Will Wright (cwcw@st-andrews.ac.uk).

5. The Campaign has expressed an interest in broadcasting the DEC appeal for aid in Gaza. The Association would encourage any student interested in organising a screening to make a room booking either with the University or the Association. We would be happy to advertise such an event. We would also encourage the Campaign to approach STAR and discuss the possibility of a radio broadcast.

6. The University currently has partnerships with other universities around the world, including those in the Middle East. The Association encourages the University to investigate the possibility of establishing links with Palestinian universities.

7. The Campaign has requested that medical aid be supplied by the University to the people of Gaza. The Association encourages the Campaign to identify specific areas of need and potential recipient organisations of such aid. Once recipients have been identified, we encourage the University to identify resources that could be deployed to this end.

The Association looks forward to taking these issues forward with all parties, through our established channels of communication with the University. The first discussion will take place on Monday and will address ethical procurement and research ethics.

We would encourage any students with concerns about the University’s practices to raise these with us, as the independent organisation mandated to represent St Andrews students.

If you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to get in touch by emailing pres@st-and.ac.uk or dorep@st-and.ac.uk. You can also call 01334 462700 (x2700 from halls of residence).

[RedCelt69]

The only thing worse than growing older and selling out your youthful ideals... is to have never had any ideals to sell out in the first place.

Ah, yes, that claptrap. Heard it before.

Claptrap you say? Right... well, I best go revise my worldview and change my belief system accordingly.

I mean... normally, I'll only do that when logical reasoning is offered as to why I'm wrong about something, but you've convinced me with your one word rebuttal. "Claptrap" <makes note to throw that word at someone when I'm completely lost for a convincing counterargument>

[RedCelt69]

This morning, in School 3, a student approached the lecturer prior to the lecture commencing requesting a quick word with the audience to make them aware of the ongoing protest. He was given a polite (if irritable) refusal. I wasn't sitting close enough to hear the whole reply, but it included the words "have you even been to Israel? Well I have" and "not pleasant living with the constant threat of rocket attacks".

After the student left, the lecture began. Whereupon we were told about how gosh-darned good the Roman Empire had been at conquering their neighbours and installing themselves in their territory.

Seems that wherever I go, people in St Andrews are discussing Gaza. Which can only be a good thing. The fact that there are other regimes (Zimbabwe's been mentioned) that are deserving of our scorn, condemnation, protest etc does not mean that we shouldn't highlight others.

Aaanyway.

[exnihilo]

Bit of selective quoting of yourself there, RedCelt. Your argument was that people should rebel when young, which I consider to be claptrap. People should do what they see fit, if they see no need for "rebellion" then who are you or anyone else to tell them that they must simply because of their age? Indeed, if all young people are rebelling then the one who does not, who conforms by your view, is surely the only one who is not conforming who is expressing his or her individuality by doing what the others are not? Either way, taking a political position should never be about anything other than a sincerely held belief in it, not age, not location, not peer pressure.

[zipporah]

If funding could be found, I think a scholarship for an international student whose life has been disrupted by conflict would be fantastic. I can't, however, sign a petition demanding the university set up ten scholarships for students from Palestine. It's a completely unrealistic demand. The university doesn't have that money and Palestinian students aren't more worthy of it than potential students from a multitude of countries around the world.

[Blueswater]

Saying these people should leave the university is like saying that anti-war protesters should leave the UK if they don't support the decisions of the government.

Hey creepy old man, thanks for your points - i see where you're coming from.

On the above quote though I have to disagree. Being a citizen of a country means being an equal member of a democracy, and your principal and ultimate power is the power of your vote. The university, on the other hand, is a service-provider of which we are consumers. In this scenario, our ultimate power is our money and to which university we choose to give it. Now, I don't believe they should leave; I believe that if they want to bring attention and aid to the Gaza situation (which is admirable) then there are far more effective and efficient ways to do it and I really cannot see the logic of embroiling the university (a neutral party) in it.

[pambo]

I would like to know why the Students’ Association feel they have to represent the "protesters" in discussions with the university. The majority of students don't support these people, if they did they would be camped out with them. The Students’ Association should stay neutral, as by association every student is now seen to be supporting this cause. An organisation conducting business in my and every other students name should not pander to the whims of these clowns.

[macgamer]

Message to all students from the Students’ Association

The Students’ Association supports every student’s right to peaceful protest. We acknowledge the conscientious nature of this protest and the respect the protesters have shown towards University property. They have also been respectful and understanding in all conversations with representatives of the University and the Association.

The Students’ Association seeks to resolve the issues raised by the Campaign through co-operation and agreement between all parties.

In our experience, constant dialogue is the best way to resolve issues that arise between students and the University, and there are several established routes through which the discussion can take place. These methods of communication are available – through the Students’ Association – to any individual student or group with concerns about any aspect of the University.

It was a pity that the above sentiments were not shared by the previous Students' Association board when dealing with the Pro-Life Society. [Emphasis added identifying the points lacking in the resolving the previous incident].

Sit-ins, are in my view, an unjustified method of protest considering the University's tenuous link with this rather complicated political situation.

[Well]

Some information from the Edinburgh protest, might make the issues a bit clearer since the "informed" protesters here seem to still be claiming that the Golan Heights were Palestinian territory.

http://pandp.eusa.ed.ac.uk/2006/?articl ... ngsFAQ.txt

Apparently Eden Springs operates in Europe in partnership with Danone which owns:

Evian
Volvic
Actimel
Shape yoghurt
and more

So a few more things to boycott.

[creepy old man]

Yes, but coming to university here isn't a simple, one-time transaction. Students move here and spend four years living here (or more.. or fewer) over the course of their studies. It's more like a membership than a simple customer-retailer situation. After all, we do have elections, so there is at least the pretense that we should have SOME say in how things are done around here. If after studying here for a year or two a student discovers something they don't like about the university that is not set in stone and can possibly be altered, that student shouldn't be expected to pack up and leave. Maybe making demands like millions of pounds of scholarship funding is a bit excessive, but asking the university to change its supplier of bottled water really isn't that big of a deal. That issue is a bit of an insane reason to leave a university, wasting thousands of pounds (potentially, depending on where you're from) in the process.

I know that the university isn't a democracy, but it's an institution that we are all part of, and I like to think that its administrators want to listen to students and do things that we will approve of. Maybe making lots of money comes first, but we should expect a certain degree of cooperation from the university. After all in between the stages of consuming and boycotting there should be some negotiating and explanation, otherwise the boycotted party is left not knowing why no one wants to do business with them anymore.

[creepy old man]

Oh PS I agree about the neutrality thing... but in effect you could say that the Eden Springs thing is an attempt to get the uni to stop funding an anti-Palestinian company. So that could be seen as a neutralising effort. The rest of the list of demands is a bit excessive, at least in the way that it's worded!

[Yes]

The elections are for the Students' Association, not the University.

[jollytiddlywink]

[/quote] It was a pity that the above sentiments were not shared by the previous Students' Association board when dealing with the Pro-Life Society. [Emphasis added identifying the points lacking in the resolving the previous incident].

Sit-ins, are in my view, an unjustified method of protest considering the University's tenuous link with this rather complicated political situation.[/quote]

Non Union affiliation of a society is rather different than the SA recognizing the right to protest. You may feel that the method of protest is unjustified, but because it is peaceful and respectful, I repeat my earlier point that quibbles over the method of protest are nothing more than misplaced aesthetic sensibility. Whining about protest methods is also a failure to engage with the serious points the protest is raising. It is as if Britain went to war with France, and everyone on the sinner criticized the decision to broadcast this to the public by radio instead of television: it completely misses the point!

And, different situation aside, my understanding is that the Pro-Life society constitution was felt to be incompatible with Union affiliation, and discussion being unable to resolve this, they are not affiliated.

[Guest]

This really is such a fatuous and pointless demonstration that only students with too much time on their hands could come up with it. They are highly unlikely to achieve their small aims, it will do no good for the people they wish to benefit and may actually be to the deterrent of individuals who have no involvement whatsoever. It also goes no way to achieving their broader aims. Quite frankly it is rather pathetic.

It is a protest with no balls, which the individuals involved in dont have the commitment to the cause to do something genuinely outrageous or attention grabbing - perhaps if they did it might spoil their career if they do or they might be asked to leave the univeristy? As previously mentioned; pathetic.

Grow up.

[RedCelt69]

Bit of selective quoting of yourself there, RedCelt. Your argument was that people should rebel when young, which I consider to be claptrap. People should do what they see fit, if they see no need for "rebellion" then who are you or anyone else to tell them that they must simply because of their age? Indeed, if all young people are rebelling then the one who does not, who conforms by your view, is surely the only one who is not conforming who is expressing his or her individuality by doing what the others are not? Either way, taking a political position should never be about anything other than a sincerely held belief in it, not age, not location, not peer pressure.

Claptrap.