Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

[Haunted]

Yep.
The non-binding resolution was passed late last year 85-50.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world ... f6e78c78d5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRb2OKPBswM
This year a binding resolution will be introduced. Is anyone else concerned that we are essentially being bullied by Islamic nations into swallowing their bullshit?
The UN is also giving an air of legitimacy to the few nations that lock up/torture people for "offending islam" or whatever.

This is fundamentally incompatible with western democracy.

[Delts]

To quote Mr. Fry: Religion, shit it.

[Humphrey]

You might be aware there is now a competing Universal Islamic Deceleration of Human Rights.

http://www.alhewar.com/ISLAMDECL.html

The declaration is claimed to be complementary to the UN’s Universal Declaration of human rights (UDHR) but contains a number of important differences. The Islamic version for instance changes the declaration of equality of rights for all people to equality of dignity and obligations, and limits rights to those given within the shari'ah. This is unsurprising when you consider the historical context in which we obtained our concept of rights, namely the formation of the Western legal tradition within Christianity, the intellectual turmoil of the reformation and the development of the enlightenment project. In Islamic culture rights are supposed to be coupled with duties. The shari'ah is both broader than English Law (as it includes rituals and personal matters) and is open to interpretation and debate. It is better understood as a dynamic legal tradition based on principles and values found in Muslim scripture (very little of the Qur'an and Sunna make up ahkam, or actual laws and yet they are the foundations of the Shariah). The view is that religion provides morality and values, values shape legal systems, so religion ultimately must have something to say in state affairs even if it doesn't fully infiltrate it. So blasphemy, which we would regard as a bit quaint, is something of a big deal. Freedom of expression/speech in Islam is better understood as a right to express oneself within the context of the law and society's values; so Islamically you look to what is perceived best for the society as a whole, not the individual. Of course as a western liberal I fundamentally disagree with this, but i can see their point of view.

[Andy Monkey B]

oooo can we turn this into a thread of committing blasphemy against Islam? Frankly I think I could claim that my religion requires me to.

This is precisely why I am against the Christian Voice (Stephen Green) when he calls for things like the banning of Jerry Springer the Opera. It doesn't seem to be consistent to disallow blasphemy against one's own religion while claiming freedom of speech against another.

[Hennessy]

This is why the UN is becoming increasingly irrelevant, which is far more worrying to me than some statement of solidarity with the Islamic world. The UN is already weak and considered at best a speedy forum for what are essentially bilateral agreements, and at worst a vast and Byzantine talking shop.

If the UN continues to pass resolutions on matters which are so far outside it's operating control it will be seen as ineffectual, even despised as such. I already think it needs replacing.

[Icarus]

I already think it needs replacing.

With what, out of curiosity?

[Haunted]

The Hitch writing in Slate
http://www.slate.com/id/2212662/
Don't Say a Word:
A U.N. resolution seeks to criminalize opinions that differ with the Islamic faith.

"The Muslim religion makes unusually large claims for itself. All religions do this, of course, in that they claim to know and to be able to interpret the wishes of a supreme being. But Islam affirms itself as the last and final revelation of God's word, the consummation of all the mere glimpses of the truth vouchsafed to all the foregoing faiths, available by way of the unimprovable, immaculate text of "the recitation," or Quran.

If there sometimes seems to be something implicitly absolutist or even totalitarian in such a claim, it may result not from a fundamentalist reading of the holy book but from the religion itself. And it is the so-called mainstream Muslims, grouped in the Organization of the Islamic Conference, who are now demanding through the agency of the United Nations that Islam not only be allowed to make absolutist claims but that it also be officially shielded from any criticism of itself......."

[Jono]

One more reason to ignore and deride the UN. Seriously, if the organisation continues to be dominated by a kabal of tinpot statelets (most of which, I hasten to add, partly or entirely owe their existence to the West), I say we pick up our toys and play elsewhere!

[Andy B]

Paragraph 5 "expresses its deep concern that Islam is frequently and wrongly associated with human rights violations and terrorism,"

Problem is, that in both the Koran and Muslim tradition about their prophet (the two sources of authority in Islam) believers are instructed to violently opress those who reject Islam. Surah 9 calls for the specific violence against the 'pagans' and those to whom the scriptures have been given but have not accepted. Muslim tradition also records the story of the prophet massacring two powerful jewish familes in Medina, and calling for his followers to do likewise to the Jewish people. It would seem then that those who commit violence in the name of Islam are not the ones who have misread their scriptures to their own ends, but the ones who are truly following it. Anyone else is in danger of ending up with a 'pick'n'mix' faith, which is no faith at all.

If that resloution passes I'll probably get beheaded for this.

[munchingfoo]

One more reason to ignore and deride the UN. Seriously, if the organisation continues to be dominated by a kabal of tinpot statelets (most of which, I hasten to add, partly or entirely owe their existence to the West), I say we pick up our toys and play elsewhere!

World War III anyone?

[Frank]

Okay, it's not a race war, but still.

[Humphrey]

Mohammed was at war most of his prophetic career, therefore, and somewhat unsurprisingly, martial teachings prevail in number over moral teachings in the Koran. Some of it is good and stresses tolerance and non aggression, for example "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God" (8:61). Parts of the Hadith worry me a bit, e.g:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

The most fun is the apocalypse, which I am really looking forward to. First up, the Mahdi is going to show up and engage in a life or death struggle with the antichrist. In the midst of this punch-up, Jesus is going to show up in Damascas dressed in yellow, kill all the pigs (for some reason) and join the Mahdi in his fight. Eventually the Christ is going to kill the antichrist and convert the entire world to Islam. This will usher in universal peace, until of course Gog and Magog show up (who?!?). Luckily God kills them by putting worms in their necks. After that Jesus is going to die (he wasn't crucified by the way) and be buried in Medina next to Mohammed. After this, a horn is going to blast, the dead will be resurrected; following which the sniggering 'unbelievers' on this forum, thats you Frank and Haunted!, will be bound in chains and sent off to burn in Hell. Hellfire by the way has, and I quote, '69 more portions than ordinary (worldly) fire, and all of them are as hot as this (worldly fire)'. Why 69?!?. The goody two shoes will be sent to heaven, a cool garden with running streams of unlimited food and drink, enormous palaces staffed with multitudes of servants, and perfect, perpetually-virginal spouses.

If you want to be really hardcore you should be reading an Arabic translation. The Qur'an is not the Qur'an unless it appears in the original Arabic since it is the dictated word of God, and the creator chose to speak to Mohammed in his native tongue.

[LonelyPilgrim]

One more reason to ignore and deride the UN. Seriously, if the organisation continues to be dominated by a kabal of tinpot statelets (most of which, I hasten to add, partly or entirely owe their existence to the West), I say we pick up our toys and play elsewhere!

World War III anyone?

Disturbingly, I was speaking to someone the other day with a Top Secret - Black security clearance and 40 years in US naval intelligence. I say disturbingly because his estimate was WWIII by the end of 2010, 2012 at the absolute latest if we abandon Ukraine and we wait for the Russians to get to Poland before we do something. I do have to say, the military build-up going on in Germany and all points east is a bit worrying - it seems everyone, including the Russians, believe the Russians are coming (or at least might be).

Everyone here, in the US, seems to worry about China, but China is too heavily tied up in the international system, particularly the financial system, and is way too dependent upon the US economy for its own ability to function, to be rocking the boat too much. Russia, though... Russia is sufficiently 'disconnected' from the economic consequences of bad behaviour that it fits the model of a potentially serious troublemaker - strong military, nuclear trump card, proud history, and a sense that it can act with impunity in its near-abroad. Doesn't mean there really will be trouble... but it's where I'll be keeping my eye on.

[RedCelt69]

following which the sniggering 'unbelievers' on this forum, thats you Frank and Haunted!, will be bound in chains and sent off to burn in Hell.

*cough*

Hellfire by the way has, and I quote, '69 more portions than ordinary (worldly) fire, and all of them are as hot as this (worldly fire)'. Why 69?!?.

My favourite number! I'm a definite shoe-in for the fiery abyss.

Disturbingly, I was speaking to someone the other day with a Top Secret - Black security clearance and 40 years in US naval intelligence.

Pssst! There's a commie under your bed! This guy you were speaking to... did he try to sell you a copy of the "real" Roswell tapes?

[Humphrey]

*cough*

My apologies. Frank, Haunted AND RedCelt69 will be cast into "a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place....Woe on that day to the disbelievers! Begone to the Hell which you deny! Depart into the shadow that will rise high in three columns, giving neither shade nor shelter from the flames, and throwing up sparks as huge as towers, as bright as yellow camels....Ye shall surely taste of the tree Zaqqum. Then will ye fill your insides therwith, and drink boiling water on top of it. Indeed ye shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst. Such will be their entertainment on the day of Requital!...We shall say: 'Lay hold of him and bind him. Burn him in the fie of Hell, then fasten him with a chain seventy cubits long. For he did not believe Allah the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Today he shall be friendless here; filth shall be his food, the filth which sinners eat"

Prepare to eat your own excrement, you bunch of diseased camels.

And so on and so forth...

[RedCelt69]

Prepare to eat your own excrement, you bunch of diseased camels.

More a case of "die and eat shit" than "eat shit and die".

[Andy Monkey B]

The Qur'an is not the Qur'an unless it appears in the original Arabic since it is the dictated word of God.

Although strangely enough, some of the Qur'anic inscriptions around the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem are distinctly different from the Qur'an that we have today. Presumably allah did some later revisions, possibly changing his mind a few times before releasing the final print edition.

Also, much of the Qur'an seems to come from 4th and 5th century Jewish fairy-tales, almost word for word. Seems that allah either was a bit stumped for ideas when he chatted to the prophet or the Jews somehow managed to steal bits of the original which resides only in heaven.

For some more information:

http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/debate/debate.htm

[Andy Monkey B]

oooo can we turn this into a thread of committing blasphemy against Islam?

Apparently we've just done it

[Hennessy]

I already think it needs replacing.

With what, out of curiosity?

My ideal fascist utopia, of course.

The UN isn't the only culprit here, it has something to do with multinational organisations backed up only by miles of red tape and a kind of irritating repetitive nit-picking legislation that would seem familiar to the copy/paste one-upmanship we indulge in here on the Sinner. The EU is a wonderful example of this, implemented as it is by navelgazing morons who think it's only fair the whole Parliament ups and moves every six months to appease the French.

Remember what happened when the Russians turned off the gas taps this winter? The EU fell apart, bilateral treaties were hastily signed, and the Ukrainians abandoned as individual states sought to protect only themselves. The UN is like that in my opinion, a wonderful dream of goodwill during times of prosperity and peace, but an actual burden when real-world decisions need to be made in time.

I'd replace the UN with a stripped down forum, a security council made of confirmed nuclear states, but crucially no veto on UN resolutions. Remove the bollocks about human rights which have done very little but influence a generation of Western leaders into thinking interventionism would bring enlightenment, simply have a resolution accepting the many different interpretations of freedom and happiness. Independent military, more presidential-style power to the secretary-general.

[macgamer]

Yep.
The non-binding resolution was passed late last year 85-50.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world ... f6e78c78d5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRb2OKPBswM
This year a binding resolution will be introduced. Is anyone else concerned that we are essentially being bullied by Islamic nations into swallowing their bullshit?
The UN is also giving an air of legitimacy to the few nations that lock up/torture people for "offending islam" or whatever.

This is fundamentally incompatible with western democracy.

Can we be sure that the Archibishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams isn't behind all of this?