The KK - Is this the end for our intrepid duo (and some)??!

[pandora-incarnate]

I have no involvement with the KK at all, other than serving quite a few of the members at the bar when I work at Catch and going to the occasional KK event... But I think the KK is a fantastic 'quirk' in our very quirky university, it's the KK who organises two of the years three main balls, they help with the Raisin Weekend cleanup, the KK Procession, and all of this while raising money for charity.

Yes, they are a male-only society. The Lumsden Club is women-only. Both hold interviews to determine eligability of new members. It's not as if women have no such alternative open to them - was the Lumsden originally not made as a group for the KK wives?! If Richardson is going to distance herself, and therefore the university, from the KK, I can't see how she can not do the same with Lumsden.

But more than that, I think this is a sad day for the University. If the KK don't help with the Raisin Cleanup, who will do it? The uni staff, I suspect, taking up their time for a job students have volunteered to do. If the University refuses to acknowledge the KK, then that's the end of the Opening Ball on Lower College Lawn, which is another brilliant tradiition - especially for first years.

It also makes me question what's going to happen about other societies - will the CU be forced to allow athesists to join? Or is this just about the KK, as it's the one of the most prominent student clubs?

[exnihilo]

The next meeting of the General Council should be interesting then. Most of the active members would be very much against this move and I expect she might get a tough time of it.

[Georgina]

I think the point that the University is making is that they are withdrawing University support for the KK. This is not to say that they believe the KK should stop existing, or that the University is on a mission to remove all exclusive groups, regardless of their connection with the university. This is the distinction between the KK, and the CU, Lumsden Club etc. The KK actively ask for University support in various ways, whereas the others do not, and it is this support that the Principal is withdrawing.

To my knowledge these are some of the ways in which the KK ask for University support:
- University property for some of their social events, ie Lower College Lawn for the Opening Ball
- Mailing Room in College Gate for their correspondence
- Rooms in either halls of residence or academic buildings for interviews (I've heard of both being used)
- They used to do a reading as representatives of the student body at a Founder and Benefactors Ceremony, until this year when the Association President was asked by the university to do it instead (I think this is the name of the ceremony...)
- use of the quad, Lower College Hall, possibly Younger Hall and some university staff in the KK Procession

[Craig]

Do they let girls join the boy scouts yet?

Actually, yes. Scouting is co-educational in many countries. The UK, in fact, happens to be one of those countries!

Great scott maybe I am behind on the times. I take it this is more than just having the female equivalent (Girl Scouts) but that now there is no Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts and that they are only one group that includes everyone?
What about the Boys Brigade?

Scouts in the UK have allowed girls to be members since the very early nineties (so you're only slightly behind ) and it's all integrated.

Dunno about the Boys' Brigade. But they're rubbish anyway.

[Owen Wilton]

This Principal doesn't strike me as being easily cowed, and I don't for a moment imagine that the objections of the General Council will be the slightest impediment to her. (If it's 1 against 250 I can only feel sorry for the 250.)

I have a vague sense that that's a Thatcher quotation...

P.S.
Hear, hear, Georgina!

[Delts]

I, like others, am conflicted. Whilst I disliked the KK (and Lumsden) for their sexist member requirements, I'm not sure this is the correct way to handle things.

I personally would like to see the KK and Lumsden integrated into one, however I know this is never going to happen. A better thing would be to open up membership for both sexes, just make it heavily encouraged to join your own, with anyone continuing to persevere finding themselves lacking at interview.

I'm curious as to why she felt this needed an e-mail. A better method would be to do this discretely, not causing a fuss. This way it's just asking for an uproar from both pro and anti-camps. A better method would have to been discrete, make her feelings known to them and then slowly remove uni support. This public ostracising harms the university as much as them in the removal of their support for events like raisin weekend. It also won't last long, a new male principal in the future will happilly bring the KK back in.

She should have made her feelings clear to them and then slowly removed support to put pressure on them. This one big fuck you is going to harden the KK's resolve not to let females in.

With regards to other groups on the chopping block, yep, lets get rid of the CU. All they do is spread religion, nothing good for the town at all as far as I'm aware, and no, the toastie bar doesn't count. They take money away from local businesses like empire.

[kyra]

Boys can join the brownies etc now as well I believe - not sure how many do though!

Girlguiding UK is a single-sex organisation in accordance with the provisions of the Sex
Discrimination Act 1986. Girlguiding UK believes that the needs of girls and young women
are best met through an organisation catering specifically for girls and led by women.

It's ok to discriminate against boys, but not against girls. Obviously.

[Abserdman]

So who do we think was the first person to go and up-date Wikipedia today?

Of Late, newly inaugurated Principal and Vice-Chancellor , Louise Richardson
, has caused controversy over her decision to cut university links with the club, stating:

“I do not believe that a university can endorse a student 
club – even a club like the KK which is renowned for its charitable 
activities - from which so many of our students are excluded at birth.”

[Frank]

Seems like it's merely homogenising the 'fair' side of the University, i.e. the official side. It's certainly not a ban, as I read it, nor a whole-hearted disapproval. I can't help but feel much the same now as I do with the 'lose their job' attitude to making (colossal?) mistakes [the G20 thread]. Which is: One can collaborate with someone you don't agree with. There's still benefits pretty evident benefits to the KK, much as I disapprove of the 'elistist atmosphere' it 'tarnishes' St Andrews with etc as well as a big 'nothing really to do with me' aspect too.

On the otherhand, I'm as well (indeed more so, IMO) disapproving of the general attitude of people discussing it rather than of the KK (or Lumsden Club [or our very own Grill House Wendesday Maths Lunch of recent years, which isn't really race or gender discriminatory, but on the basis of availability on a Wednesday from 1pm...]). In fact, I think that's what I do; silly people, mountains, mole hill etc.

Personally, I don't credit the value in a single-gender-only club (at least not in this context, but generally I don't either), and I'd not deny it's right to do stuff as it does presently. If there's genuinely any more to this than 'levelling the playing field' in terms of University sanctions, fair enough. If there's some sort of sinister agenda we all ought to be divided about then I'd care very much to abstain.

[Thalia]

Girl guiding was originally developed back in the early 1900s as a means for girls to develop themselves and gain independence without merely imitating their brothers in the scouts. Some countries do allow boys into the guides but i've always thought it kind of silly - the scouts was meant to be a group boys could join to work together and learn and the guides the same for girls - it just seems kind of silly to change the idea for the sake of political correctness. As a volunteer with the brownies, I find the girls quite like spending time just with other girls and i wonder if boys in the scouts would think something similar? Maybe what we need is a seperate group that's mixed sex so that the child can pick whether they want to be in a single or mixed sex group

[Power Metal Dom]

I can't rest if I don't see a controversial Sinner thread without that image. Phew. Carry on.

[Al]

This Principal doesn't strike me as being easily cowed, and I don't for a moment imagine that the objections of the General Council will be the slightest impediment to her.

No? Is she not the same person who said "We must also persuade our alumni to invest in their university" at her installation? She will find it hard to persuade alumni to invest anything if she starts her time as Principal and Vice-Chancellor by ignoring them and their views.

[lb3]

I'm not sure about this decision at all to be honest.
I love St Andrews for all its old traditions and the KK club is one of these traditions... why remove it? I know its elitist and everything but I mean what harm has it actually done any one?

[kyra]

Girl guiding was originally developed back in the early 1900s as a means for girls to develop themselves and gain independence without merely imitating their brothers in the scouts. Some countries do allow boys into the guides but i've always thought it kind of silly - the scouts was meant to be a group boys could join to work together and learn and the guides the same for girls - it just seems kind of silly to change the idea for the sake of political correctness. As a volunteer with the brownies, I find the girls quite like spending time just with other girls and i wonder if boys in the scouts would think something similar? Maybe what we need is a seperate group that's mixed sex so that the child can pick whether they want to be in a single or mixed sex group

I agree, I see no reason for girls to be allowed to go to scouts, when guides serves exactly the same function. I don't understand why they felt the need to take away an organisation where boys can have fun without those "icky girls" (because they are of that age after all) because it was "unfair" that girls couldn't join.

Tbh I'm not that fond of most of the girls that I've met that were scouts.

[mcg23]

worked on the phone campaign for 3 years and it was damn near impossible to get the majority of the british alumni to donate anything anyway, so dont know if this will change anything

This Principal doesn't strike me as being easily cowed, and I don't for a moment imagine that the objections of the General Council will be the slightest impediment to her.

No? Is she not the same person who said "We must also persuade our alumni to invest in their university" at her installation? She will find it hard to persuade alumni to invest anything if she starts her time as Principal and Vice-Chancellor by ignoring them and their views.

[Hennessy]

MEME! /\/\/\
|||||



I think Louise Richardson should butt the hell out of what clearly isn't her business. It upsets me to think we may soon have a principal squatting in her umpteen bedroom mansion on the Scores filing diktats against everything that makes this University different from the squalid polytechnics that have to advertise to attract students.

The KK has been here since 1927, that makes it at least 10 years older than her and far more attractive.

[munchingfoo]

It's not much wonder that graduates won't donate to the University en masse. Brian Lang, in his time here, ensured that most students left University feeling like every penny had been wrung out of them by a monopolistic housing giant.

[elyettoner]

I found the Principal's email rather vague. What exactly does she mean by withdrawing university support? It could boil down to very little and doesn't necessarily mean Lower College Lawn will no longer be made available for balls, the quad for the procession, etc. I for one hope it doesn't affect some of the great events of the St Andrews calendar, which would be a great loss to this institution. It may, perhaps, be necessary for Dr. Richardson to clarify exactly what she means.

In response to the one or two comments regarding the CU, anyone is very welcome to attend meetings, which take place on Friday nights (venues change weekly and can be found on the calendar at http://www.saucu.com), regardless of religion, gender or anything else. Any concerns regarding the CU's aims, work, attitude or anything else can be expressed either on the CU forum on the aforementioned site or directly to the committee, whose contact details can be found on the same. I might add that all proceeds from Toastie Bar go to Families First (http://www.digitalfife.com/Index.asp?ID=110).

[Craig]

I think Louise Richardson should butt the hell out of what clearly isn't her business. It upsets me to think we may soon have a principal squatting in her umpteen bedroom mansion on the Scores filing diktats against everything that makes this University different from the squalid polytechnics that have to advertise to attract students.

The KK has been here since 1927, that makes it at least 10 years older than her and far more attractive.

I'm not sure "it's tradition" is any real reason to support it, and changing who can participate hardly turns us into a bland polytechnic.

If the KK were an organisation that only allowed whites, do you think that it would be acceptable for the university to recognise and associate with such a group, as it was tradition?

My only question is - what were the university doing for the KK before? I always assumed that the KK rented out various uni services as a private group.

[Frank]

I'm not sure "it's tradition" is any real reason to support it

I think that's another good point. As the great social commenter Russel Brand once wrote (or had shadow-written for him?):

I think many of the boundaries that convention has placed upon us are arbitrary, so we can fiddle with them if we fancy. Gravity's hard to dispute, and breathing, but a lot of things we instinctively obey are a lot of old tosh.

Tradition's all well and nice for the Ambassador's and prospectuses to be showing off, but let's be honest: there's plenty of traditions out there that are worthless junk. Slavery, for instance, I'm glad I gave that up.