The KK - Is this the end for our intrepid duo (and some)??!

[RandomMusings]

I wish people would stop using KKC instead of KK - purely because I keep reading KFC and doing a bloody double-take.

... and B.A., I have to say I don't find facebook all that representative either I'm afraid - just think how many people join groups or click 'attending' to events with no intention of ever engaging with either. The status updates that I saw had majoritively the same people posting on each other's statuses in a nice joy-filled loop. I'm not saying that opinon on the streets of the town may not agree with you, I'm just warning caution with Facebook - it, like e-mails, is suffering from a serious case of blase these days.

[777]

I think she has to, but you're really not getting the point are you?

She's not saying they can't exist or that they can't continue to be male only. She's saying that if they do they cannot have the support of the University.

It's always frightfully boring when people say "you're really not getting the point are you?" There is more than one point. The Principal has made a decision on behalf of every student and member of this University based on her point of view. I have every right to say I disagree with it. Dr Richardson is not infallible. The support the University has given the KKC over the years has been more than reciprocated.

I'm a woman and she has made that decision on my behalf. I choose not to be outraged because a male club doesn't want to have me as a member.

777 is female?! *head explodes*

What?

[observer]

1. The KK used to get special treatment from the University in various ways.
2. This wasn't particularly fair on other societies anyway.
3. Dr Louise Awesome* Richardson saw this arrangement and judged it inappropriate and the club at best undeserving of such status, at worst detrimental to the University.
4. Dr Richardson (controversially for a Principal) actually did something about it.

First of all, could you elaborate on what sort of "special treatment" the KK received? It seems to me that the KK has functioned with the University's disapproval long before LR came around. Don't they pay to use University property, and within the University's health and safety guidelines, just like everyone else? It hardly seems to me like the University has gone out of its way to support the KK more than anyone else. Secondly, #2 wouldn't really qualify as an "event", but that's just me being pedantic

LR's misguided self-righteousness is rather annoying. The University has never really been in partnership with the KK, and this is how it should be. However, to go out of one's way to take the Procession hostage and prevent the Opening Ball (SO important if you're a first year) from taking place on University property in order to force a club to make its membership more palatable to your PC-minded self hardly deserves applause. Is the Procession not co-ed? The May Ball? Opening Ball?

And enough about the elitism- it's simply unsubstantiated. You can have whatever perception you want about the guys in the KK, but I happen to know a few and there guys who work in restaurants around town to pay for their tuition, and who wear their May Ball jackets with a sense of pride, not entitlement. If you see the KK as promoting sexism, that's one thing, but elitism... the reality is that the majority of those who cry elitism don't know more than two KK members, if any. And I don't think LR meant to accuse the KK of racism, but in case anyone Does harbour such sentiments, it should be said outright that the KK really isn't racist...

This is for those among us who prefer liberty to political correctness, and don't necessarily love the KK enough to make a facebook group in their support, but still disagree with the unwarranted aggression against a club that has done more for this town than most give it credit for. Congrats on making the headlines, LR.

[Jono]

777 is female?! *head explodes*

What?

Girlz on teh Internetz, OMG! RU Hot?!

I wish people would stop using KKC instead of KK - purely because I keep reading KFC and doing a bloody double-take.

I believe "KKK" is the traditional short-hand. At least that's what my tutor tells me!

... and B.A., I have to say I don't find facebook all that representative either I'm afraid - just think how many people join groups or click 'attending' to events with no intention of ever engaging with either. The status updates that I saw had majoritively the same people posting on each other's statuses in a nice joy-filled loop. I'm not saying that opinon on the streets of the town may not agree with you, I'm just warning caution with Facebook - it, like e-mails, is suffering from a serious case of blase these days.

Agreed. Could people please stop justifying this on the grounds that it's *Sarcastic Fingerquotes* "massive popularity". Whether or not you like the decision, it was not taken as a result of consultation or a poll. It was taken by one person. Personal examples of people's facebook feeds are no gauge for public opinion.

As for me, only a tiny minority of my friends have voiced their resounding support for the new stance. Of those, most have never even spoken of the Kate Kennedy club before yesterday, much less attempted any kind of anti-KK kampaign.

[Al]

The only reason the Procession is "co-ed" is because pressure was brought to bear on the KK. And I really cannot see how you can describe the Opening Ball as being SO important to first year students. Many generations of incoming students managed without one. There's no reason why future generations wouldn't cope equally well.

[Guest]

maybe there should be a ball creating society? that puts on affordable good balls (maybe at start of yr and in may so there isnt the reliance on the kk...)where just anyone who is interested in organising balls can join.
what do ppl think?

[irish200]

What?

Had always assumed you were a guy, thats all. Anyway, on with the show.

[happy]

Someone suggested that the KK club didn't get any special treatment? Well, OH YES they did.

I acted in a production of As You Like It last year in the Quad. All went well in the end but if I remember correctly, the production team were asked if they could move the show from the Quad to St Mary's in order to accommodate the KK who wished to use the Quad for stalls, etc.

This suggests to me that the KK have, in the past, been given special treatment. Pretty obvious, no?

[observer]

And I really cannot see how you can describe the Opening Ball as being SO important to first year students. Many generations of incoming students managed without one.

They managed without one? They can cope without it? You're not disproving in any way the fact that those students look to the Opening Ball as the debut event of their year. The University is lucky to have an independent group throw an event for them that welcomes students to St Andrews far better than some lame comedy routine in the Union.

[Bizarre Atheist]

First of all, could you elaborate on what sort of "special treatment" the KK received? It seems to me that the KK has functioned with the University's disapproval long before LR came around. Don't they pay to use University property, and within the University's health and safety guidelines, just like everyone else? It hardly seems to me like the University has gone out of its way to support the KK more than anyone else.

Normally I would suggest you actually read the thread before posting, but I fear that you won't, so I've been generous enough to quote the excellent comments made by Miss Rannard earlier:

To my knowledge these are some of the ways in which the KK ask for University support:
- University property for some of their social events, ie Lower College Lawn for the Opening Ball
- Mailing Room in College Gate for their correspondence
- Rooms in either halls of residence or academic buildings for interviews (I've heard of both being used)
- They used to do a reading as representatives of the student body at a Founder and Benefactors Ceremony, until this year when the Association President was asked by the university to do it instead (I think this is the name of the ceremony...)
- use of the quad, Lower College Hall, possibly Younger Hall and some university staff in the KK Procession

However, to go out of one's way to take the Procession hostage and prevent the Opening Ball (SO important if you're a first year) from taking place on University property in order to force a club to make its membership more palatable to your PC-minded self hardly deserves applause. Is the Procession not co-ed? The May Ball? Opening Ball?

Take the procession hostage? Prevent the Opening Ball? Did you get a different email to everyone else?

I don't give a damn about the KK's membership - they can limit their membership to people named Steve for all I care. My gripe has always been with the unmerited level of recognition awarded to them by the University.

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

While I am an alumnus (although I regularly contemplate return for an MD or other), I certainly would have happily seen this in my day.

What makes me less certain is precisely how this is going to stop the KK being the (unrepresentative) guardian of the traditions of St Andrews? If the parade etc continue, surely that bit of their remit is unchanged? I'm increasingly thinking this isn't much more than a symbolic gesture... Not that there is anything wrong with symbolic gestures - this is a powerful one and one that has captured the imaginations of not just this messageboard, but the national press and no doubt sets the tone for Principal Richardson's forward-thinking tenure. But I don't think the KK is done.

[starsandsparkles]

To my knowledge these are some of the ways in which the KK ask for University support:
- University property for some of their social events, ie Lower College Lawn for the Opening Ball
- Mailing Room in College Gate for their correspondence
- Rooms in either halls of residence or academic buildings for interviews (I've heard of both being used)
- They used to do a reading as representatives of the student body at a Founder and Benefactors Ceremony, until this year when the Association President was asked by the university to do it instead (I think this is the name of the ceremony...)
- use of the quad, Lower College Hall, possibly Younger Hall and some university staff in the KK Procession

Lumsden, FS:09, LGBT, As You Like It, Starfields - examples off the top of my head of other societies or student groups that have used University property recently.

Psychology students use halls of residence to conduct some research, the pro-life society used one of the Schools in the quad for a talk, whichever society (Islamic?) had the ex-priest to speak a few weeks ago used University property, many of the faith societies use Mansfield, The Other Guys used Younger Hall for their album launch last year, subject-based societies using their school's buildings. Most societies use the Union as their mailing address.

I honestly don't see how letting the KK use University property puts them over and above any of these other groups (some of which are SA affiliated, some of which are not).

[Senethro]

Is it not because allowing use of university property requires the group to abide by this non-discrimination thing? You don't have to be a muslim to be a member of that islamic group or whatever, so they are permitted. Its the same reason the CU is non-affiliated, right? Because they can't take the stick our their asses about that professing a faith in Jesus christ etc

[Georgina]

Lumsden, FS:09, LGBT, As You Like It, Starfields - examples off the top of my head of other societies or student groups that have used University property recently.

Psychology students use halls of residence to conduct some research, the pro-life society used one of the Schools in the quad for a talk, whichever society (Islamic?) had the ex-priest to speak a few weeks ago used University property, many of the faith societies use Mansfield, The Other Guys used Younger Hall for their album launch last year, subject-based societies using their school's buildings. Most societies use the Union as their mailing address.

I honestly don't see how letting the KK use University property puts them over and above any of these other groups (some of which are SA affiliated, some of which are not).

Can't quite believe I'm about to point this out, but the KK are discriminatory in their membership policy, and um, all those others aren't. Apart from the Lumsden Club, who don't use university property or have any relationship with the university. They had one event on Sallies Lawn a couple of years ago, but were banned afterwards.

[starsandsparkles]

Can't quite believe I'm about to point this out, but the KK are discriminatory in their membership policy, and um, all those others aren't. Apart from the Lumsden Club, who don't use university property or have any relationship with the university. They had one event on Sallies Lawn a couple of years ago, but were banned afterwards.

Can't quite believe I'm about to point this out, but people are saying that the KK get special priviledges over and above other student groups or societies and I am asking what these are. I don't believe use of University property is restricted to them alone and so don't see how this is a special priviledge of theirs.

If I recall correctly, there were complaints about the Lumsden due to the noise being disruptive to an event in Younger Hall - absolutely nothing to do with their membership policies. If you have evidence for this then I would appreciate seeing it. [I recall Brian Lang was actually there and looked to be enjoying himself...shocking!]

Senethro - there is a difference between official Union affiliation and University 'affiliation'. The KK are not Union affiliated and therefore do not have to abide by Union rules, which include the non-discriminatory membership policies. The KK is affialiated to the University in the same way the CU, or any other student or group of students is affiliated - in that it is composed of University students and as such interacts with the University.

Slightly off-topic - but the only benefit I see of being Union-affiliated is financial support. As such the KK have little reason to be affiliated to the SA in that sense.

As an afterthought - if this really is to do with elitism, then are events such as FS to be banned from 'University affiliation'? They are clearly associated with "that type" of people.

[Jono]

Lumsden, FS:09, LGBT, As You Like It, Starfields - examples off the top of my head of other societies or student groups that have used University property recently.

Psychology students use halls of residence to conduct some research, the pro-life society used one of the Schools in the quad for a talk, whichever society (Islamic?) had the ex-priest to speak a few weeks ago used University property, many of the faith societies use Mansfield, The Other Guys used Younger Hall for their album launch last year, subject-based societies using their school's buildings. Most societies use the Union as their mailing address.

I honestly don't see how letting the KK use University property puts them over and above any of these other groups (some of which are SA affiliated, some of which are not).

Can't quite believe I'm about to point this out, but the KK are discriminatory in their membership policy, and um, all those others aren't. Apart from the Lumsden Club, who don't use university property or have any relationship with the university. They had one event on Sallies Lawn a couple of years ago, but were banned afterwards.

That’s missing the point. Hundreds of other student groups are entitled to use University property and facilities for their events. Therefore the arrangements the university had with the KK were not unique or preferential.

Speaking once again from experience: the KK do not receive the same room hire benefits from university as Students’ Association, or its affiliated societies do. While that fact never seemed to stop the former Principal & VC extending his personal and professional favour to the club, it is hard to argue that the gentlemen of the Kate Kennedy were/are set upon a plinth over and above every other student group!

[theshadowhost]

i was too lazy to read past page 2. But I think: I dont like them cause they seem elitist, but that's up to them. we could all make our own fun clubs with our friends if we wanted. It's good if the uni isn't giving them benefits any more - but did they anyway? ( i am sure if i read the thread i would find out. but i'm too lazy).

Also i'm pretty sure that the opening ball would go ahead without them, i know they currently organise it, but its shit anyway and if people do still want one then some other group could organise it.

BTW its not like they are being forced to dissband, why is everyone posting on this thread?

why am i asking these questions? its not like i am going to read the answers

[Jono, because the sinner login is being a stupid piece of shit!]

Senethro - there is a difference between official Union affiliation and University 'affiliation'. The KK are not Union affiliated and therefore do not have to abide by Union rules, which include the non-discriminatory membership policies. The KK is affialiated to the University in the same way the CU, or any other student or group of students is affiliated - in that it is composed of University students and as such interacts with the University.

the KK are not affiliated to the Univeristy in any way shape or form! Affiliation between two bodies requires some sort of mutual agreement . In the case of a union affiliated society, (put incredibly simply) the society agrees to provide its events and services for the benefit of the Union's members (i.e. Students) and in return, the Union agrees to extend the society use of its facilies in order to help the society put on its events. The KK could, at best, be construed as "associated" with the university, insofar as all its members are current and former students. In that respect, they have no more right to support from the university than any other group of students.

Slightly off-topic - but the only benefit I see of being Union-affiliated is financial support. As such the KK have little reason to be affiliated to the SA in that sense.

Don't forget the free room hire, mailbox, the hosting space on the university/union website, the university email account, the administrative support, the right to use the "University of St Andrews" brand (non affiliated groups, take note!), the insurance, the mailbox, etc. etc.
[/MASSIVE plug]

As an afterthought - if this really is to do with elitism, then are events such as FS to be banned from 'University affiliation'? They are clearly associated with "that type" of people.

This isn't a matter of class snobbery (well, it is; but people insist on maintaining the facade). This is the idea that the university has decided not to associate with the KK because of their membership practises. As I said a few posts back, I'm wary about making a general principle out of this, because events like FS probably do fall within a grey area between reasonable selection criteria and unreasonable discrimination.

[Andrew Mackenzie]

It's like some bizarre alternate reality in here. Let me try to drag some of you back to the land of the living by reminding us of the basic points - the KK are a social group that has a sexist membership policy. This goes against the University's (and, unlike some of us here that seem to think we're living in 19th century, most of the modern world's) policy of inclusion. What Louise Richardson has said is that for these reasons it is unacceptable for close links to exist between the University and the KK.

She is not planning to go round the each individual memebr of the KK's house and give them a good telling off. She is not saying they cannot exist. She is saying that their membership policy is at odds with the ideals an academic institution like ours should represent.

It is not a difficult concept to grasp.

To the outside world (by which I mean beyond the "Welcome to St Andrews" sign) the fact we had a club like the KK was, at best, seen as odd, and at worst seen as the epitome of our stereotypical snobbish, old fashioned image. The KK is not a tradition to be proud of, so I suggest we move on and be proud of the fact we've finally got a Principal brave enough to put the KK in it's place.

[Andrew Mackenzie]

That’s missing the point. Hundreds of other student groups are entitled to use University property and facilities for their events. Therefore the arrangements the university had with the KK were not unique or preferential.

Speaking once again from experience: the KK do not receive the same room hire benefits from university as Students’ Association, or its affiliated societies do. While that fact never seemed to stop the former Principal & VC extending his personal and professional favour to the club, it is hard to argue that the gentlemen of the Kate Kennedy were/are set upon a plinth over and above every other student group!

1. The KK portray themselves as protectors of (at least some) of St Andrew's traditions. I like the aura of "tradition" that surrounds St Andrews, but dislike the fact the KK feel like they can claim it as theirs. I'm aware of the history of the KK re the procession, but now that we're in 2009 I feel like the KK should be removed as far as possible from every aspect of St Andrews I (and many others) treasure, as their presence taints it.

2. No other affiliated society has sexist membership policies and therefore there is no problem with them using the University's rooms.