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Re:
by Buzzboy on Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:05 pm
[s]Neferet wrote on 16:56, 15th Sep 2003:
No one is saying that if you kiss someone on the cheek then you are automatically a social climber just that social climbers are the ones who do this in such an OTT way
"SOCIAL CLIMBERS ARE THE ONES WHO DO THIS IN SUCH AN OTT WAY."
HOW DO YOU KNOW?!!!!!!!!!
please, that's all I want to know, I'm not being nasty not trying to mount vendetta's against people. I just want an answer to that question.
Am I not reading between some lines here or something, do you know everyone who does this?. Also over the top is totally subjective.
[hr]
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
No one is saying that if you kiss someone on the cheek then you are automatically a social climber just that social climbers are the ones who do this in such an OTT way
"SOCIAL CLIMBERS ARE THE ONES WHO DO THIS IN SUCH AN OTT WAY."
HOW DO YOU KNOW?!!!!!!!!!
please, that's all I want to know, I'm not being nasty not trying to mount vendetta's against people. I just want an answer to that question.
Am I not reading between some lines here or something, do you know everyone who does this?. Also over the top is totally subjective.
[hr]
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
"Can I leave it with you?"
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Buzzboy
- Posts: 227
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by benedict on Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:06 pm
in terms of the negativity it's seems like 6 of one half a dozen of the other. i get what Buzzboy is saying & i respect his open minded viewpoint. i'm guessing that he's saying that folk should not be too quick to judge someone.
calling Buzzboy a pratt certainly wasn't good spirited. i don't think he deserved that.
[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy
calling Buzzboy a pratt certainly wasn't good spirited. i don't think he deserved that.
[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy
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benedict
Re:
by Neferet on Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:12 pm
How do I know? Because its fairly obvious. I know a few of them as do most people in St Andrews and while some of them are nice people too they are very false in their attitude around people who do not have the same background shall we say.
When it gets to the stage when groups of people in hall start blanking others because they are not classy enough it gets ridiculous, especially when they then believe themselves to be above the rules and the warden of said hall. Their behaviour was appaling as is some I have seen out and about. And in my experience it is the OTT ones who do this. Social climber is not a term to aspire too, and it does not imply all richer people obviously.
And asking people questions repeatedly is not a pleasant experience, it can be intimidating and is enough to put people off altogether. Everyone has their opinions but to express your own you should not have to attack other people's.
When it gets to the stage when groups of people in hall start blanking others because they are not classy enough it gets ridiculous, especially when they then believe themselves to be above the rules and the warden of said hall. Their behaviour was appaling as is some I have seen out and about. And in my experience it is the OTT ones who do this. Social climber is not a term to aspire too, and it does not imply all richer people obviously.
And asking people questions repeatedly is not a pleasant experience, it can be intimidating and is enough to put people off altogether. Everyone has their opinions but to express your own you should not have to attack other people's.
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Neferet
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Re:
by Al on Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:33 pm
I sort of got the impression that Pussycat (among others) was not talking so much about the people for whom such behaviour is second-nature but about those who are aspiring to present themselves as something they are not. There is something slightly ridiculous and, I'm afraid, laughable about people who change the minute they get the key to their university room.
[hr]"Rest is not idleness, and to lie sometimes on the grass on a summer day listening to the murmur of water, or watching the clouds float across the sky, is hardly a waste of time".
[hr]"Rest is not idleness, and to lie sometimes on the grass on a summer day listening to the murmur of water, or watching the clouds float across the sky, is hardly a waste of time".
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Al
- Posts: 3992
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Amaunet on Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:22 pm
[s]Neferet wrote on 17:12, 15th Sep 2003:[i]
How do I know? Because its fairly obvious. I know a few of them as do most people in St Andrews and while some of them are nice people too they are very false in their attitude around people who do not have the same background shall we say.
It can also be said, that there are certain groups of people who are not willing to give those they see as 'yahs' the same open friendliness as they would to regular jo's
I kiss my friends on the cheeks when we meet- but none of us could be described as yahs or social climbers-its just how we are. Perhaps we all ought to stop jumping to conclusions about people whom we know nothing about.
[hr]
"You should be kissed, and often, and by someone who knows how"
Gone with the Wind
How do I know? Because its fairly obvious. I know a few of them as do most people in St Andrews and while some of them are nice people too they are very false in their attitude around people who do not have the same background shall we say.
It can also be said, that there are certain groups of people who are not willing to give those they see as 'yahs' the same open friendliness as they would to regular jo's
I kiss my friends on the cheeks when we meet- but none of us could be described as yahs or social climbers-its just how we are. Perhaps we all ought to stop jumping to conclusions about people whom we know nothing about.
[hr]
"You should be kissed, and often, and by someone who knows how"
Gone with the Wind
"You should be kissed, and often, and by someone who knows how"
Gone with the Wind
Gone with the Wind
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Amaunet
- Posts: 567
- Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:56 pm
Re:
by Cain on Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:36 pm
[s]EviLTwiN wrote on 04:00, 15th Sep 2003:
I have to say that if a guy tried to kiss a gf of mine on both cheeks i'd be annoyed.
It may be customary to kiss like this in other places...
what other places? i thought that most people usually kept it restricted to the face (oh, what a wit i am)
since i've been away, this thread has gone a bit, mad.
I'll put my tuppence in and say that its the meaning behind the gestures that counts, rather than the gestures themselves. there shouldn't really be any social stigma with greeting your mates, unless its with a white power salute or something that will offend people because of the beliefs behind it.
and, if you feel uncomfortable with something, say so. i feel comfortable giving big hugs to some of my mates. those people would not react well to a knocking together of fists and a "word dog, AB3 for life," so i don't do that with them.
Conclusion: manners are all about making people feel comfortable.
I have to say that if a guy tried to kiss a gf of mine on both cheeks i'd be annoyed.
It may be customary to kiss like this in other places...
what other places? i thought that most people usually kept it restricted to the face (oh, what a wit i am)
since i've been away, this thread has gone a bit, mad.
I'll put my tuppence in and say that its the meaning behind the gestures that counts, rather than the gestures themselves. there shouldn't really be any social stigma with greeting your mates, unless its with a white power salute or something that will offend people because of the beliefs behind it.
and, if you feel uncomfortable with something, say so. i feel comfortable giving big hugs to some of my mates. those people would not react well to a knocking together of fists and a "word dog, AB3 for life," so i don't do that with them.
Conclusion: manners are all about making people feel comfortable.
I hold an element of surprise
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Cain
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- Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 8:31 am
Re:
by EviLTwiN on Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:38 pm
[s]Buzzboy wrote on 15:53, 15th Sep 2003:
...but surely what you are discussing is an act between two people who are obviously NOT offended by it. And what Eviltwin is discussing is an act between two people, of which he is neither, which he finds offensive!
What I am trying to point out (now in blunt mode) is that both your examples are not examples of the situation you are trying to discuss.
[hr]
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
Who said that a girlfriend of mine wouldn't be offended? It's already been pointed out that it would be very rude to pull back when someone tries to kiss you like that, so she would have to let him kiss her... and in this situation both me and her MAY find it awkward. The point is he doesn't know. Thats why its rude to do it in a country where kissing is reserved for very close relations.
This perfectly reiterates my point that you missed (too busy likening me to neanderthals) that you shouldn't do something like this in a different country unless you know the people involved.
ALSO!!! Even if my gf didn't mind kissing, she may equally not want to do it in front of me for whatever reason (feeling awkward, or whatever... that's her business) and since she has to go thru with it, it is rude for the guy to try to kiss her unless he knows how SHE (yes, one of the 2 people involved) feels about it. And he obviously can't know how she feels if he doesn't know her well.
The point is that unless you know how the other person feels (and her feelings will be dependant partly on the feelings of other people she loves) you shouldn't do it in a culture where it isn't normally done.
And before you say anything about neanderthals, it may simply be that the gf doesn't know how her bf will feel about it (esp. if the kissing guy isn't european) and so would feel awkward doing it.
So you see, even if you're right and he should only care about the feelings of the girl he's kissing, it would still be rude for him to do it (given the complications that it may cause her given her culture where kissing is reserved for very close friends) unless he knew how she felt about that. And most guys wouldn't unless they were good friends of her.
[hr]
IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif
[s]http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin [rar!]......http://www.feedbacking.com
http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin/photogallery.htm
[/s]
...but surely what you are discussing is an act between two people who are obviously NOT offended by it. And what Eviltwin is discussing is an act between two people, of which he is neither, which he finds offensive!
What I am trying to point out (now in blunt mode) is that both your examples are not examples of the situation you are trying to discuss.
[hr]
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
Who said that a girlfriend of mine wouldn't be offended? It's already been pointed out that it would be very rude to pull back when someone tries to kiss you like that, so she would have to let him kiss her... and in this situation both me and her MAY find it awkward. The point is he doesn't know. Thats why its rude to do it in a country where kissing is reserved for very close relations.
This perfectly reiterates my point that you missed (too busy likening me to neanderthals) that you shouldn't do something like this in a different country unless you know the people involved.
ALSO!!! Even if my gf didn't mind kissing, she may equally not want to do it in front of me for whatever reason (feeling awkward, or whatever... that's her business) and since she has to go thru with it, it is rude for the guy to try to kiss her unless he knows how SHE (yes, one of the 2 people involved) feels about it. And he obviously can't know how she feels if he doesn't know her well.
The point is that unless you know how the other person feels (and her feelings will be dependant partly on the feelings of other people she loves) you shouldn't do it in a culture where it isn't normally done.
And before you say anything about neanderthals, it may simply be that the gf doesn't know how her bf will feel about it (esp. if the kissing guy isn't european) and so would feel awkward doing it.
So you see, even if you're right and he should only care about the feelings of the girl he's kissing, it would still be rude for him to do it (given the complications that it may cause her given her culture where kissing is reserved for very close friends) unless he knew how she felt about that. And most guys wouldn't unless they were good friends of her.
[hr]
IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif
[s]http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin [rar!]......http://www.feedbacking.com
http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin/photogallery.htm
[/s]
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EviLTwiN
Re:
by EviLTwiN on Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:51 pm
buzzboy,
incidentally i do agree with some of what you said, and having just gone and read this last page of bitching i want to make it clear that although i think that some people do it because they're social climbers, i also think a lot of people do it just because its a nice thign to do (i already said i thought it was nice).
However it is very important to realise that in a country with a different culture you may offend people by accident. I'm just asking for a bit of awareness. And the scots point of view is perfectly valid. I don't like the way you tried to make it sound like i'm a neanderthal who can't stand my gf talking/being close to other guys or whatever. It is simply a case of scottish people reserving kissing for very close relations, and a potential 'kisser' not knowing the feelings of the person being kissed.
If he knows her well then any guy will feel fine about it because he knows they're friends. That's totally cool.
What i'd be annoyed about is if some guy who she didn't really know came up and just did it, giving her no polite choice but to kiss back, when he clearly doesn't know me or her, or how she feels. I think that's a reasonable thing to feel.
do you agree buzzboy?
[hr]IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif
[s]http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin [rar!]......http://www.feedbacking.com
http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin/photogallery.htm
[/s]
incidentally i do agree with some of what you said, and having just gone and read this last page of bitching i want to make it clear that although i think that some people do it because they're social climbers, i also think a lot of people do it just because its a nice thign to do (i already said i thought it was nice).
However it is very important to realise that in a country with a different culture you may offend people by accident. I'm just asking for a bit of awareness. And the scots point of view is perfectly valid. I don't like the way you tried to make it sound like i'm a neanderthal who can't stand my gf talking/being close to other guys or whatever. It is simply a case of scottish people reserving kissing for very close relations, and a potential 'kisser' not knowing the feelings of the person being kissed.
If he knows her well then any guy will feel fine about it because he knows they're friends. That's totally cool.
What i'd be annoyed about is if some guy who she didn't really know came up and just did it, giving her no polite choice but to kiss back, when he clearly doesn't know me or her, or how she feels. I think that's a reasonable thing to feel.
do you agree buzzboy?
[hr]IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif
[s]http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin [rar!]......http://www.feedbacking.com
http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin/photogallery.htm
[/s]
-
EviLTwiN
Re:
by Buzzboy on Mon Sep 15, 2003 9:29 pm
[s]EviLTwiN wrote on 20:51, 15th Sep 2003:
buzzboy,
incidentally i do agree with some of what you said, and having just gone and read this last page of bitching i want to make it clear that although i think that some people do it because they're social climbers, i also think a lot of people do it just because its a nice thign to do (i already said i thought it was nice).
However it is very important to realise that in a country with a different culture you may offend people by accident. I'm just asking for a bit of awareness. And the scots point of view is perfectly valid. I don't like the way you tried to make it sound like i'm a neanderthal who can't stand my gf talking/being close to other guys or whatever. It is simply a case of scottish people reserving kissing for very close relations, and a potential 'kisser' not knowing the feelings of the person being kissed.
If he knows her well then any guy will feel fine about it because he knows they're friends. That's totally cool.
What i'd be annoyed about is if some guy who she didn't really know came up and just did it, giving her no polite choice but to kiss back, when he clearly doesn't know me or her, or how she feels. I think that's a reasonable thing to feel.
do you agree buzzboy?
Depends on the guy, depends on the situation (i.e. hogmany). I will not be drawn into make a generalisation I do not wish to make, and that proves nothing. I would probably only get angry if my girlfriend was upset by it - if she didn't mind it wouldn't bother me either.
As for me making you sound like a neaderthal, I am genuinely sorry about that. I've lived on the continent so I just don't get why you are so uptight about it. To me it sounded like you were being over-protective.
Of course though, as a man on the continent, it is NOT the done thing to make the first move to kiss a woman you don't know's cheek. So you wouldn't have any problems with continental guys or people who knew the custom properly. As a man with a woman you don't know, you should wait to be approached. Except of course if she is married and you know her husband.
I say again though, that I would only get annoyed if it bothered my girlfriend, not because the act didn't give her a choice in the matter. I think that may be where we differ.
[hr]
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
buzzboy,
incidentally i do agree with some of what you said, and having just gone and read this last page of bitching i want to make it clear that although i think that some people do it because they're social climbers, i also think a lot of people do it just because its a nice thign to do (i already said i thought it was nice).
However it is very important to realise that in a country with a different culture you may offend people by accident. I'm just asking for a bit of awareness. And the scots point of view is perfectly valid. I don't like the way you tried to make it sound like i'm a neanderthal who can't stand my gf talking/being close to other guys or whatever. It is simply a case of scottish people reserving kissing for very close relations, and a potential 'kisser' not knowing the feelings of the person being kissed.
If he knows her well then any guy will feel fine about it because he knows they're friends. That's totally cool.
What i'd be annoyed about is if some guy who she didn't really know came up and just did it, giving her no polite choice but to kiss back, when he clearly doesn't know me or her, or how she feels. I think that's a reasonable thing to feel.
do you agree buzzboy?
Depends on the guy, depends on the situation (i.e. hogmany). I will not be drawn into make a generalisation I do not wish to make, and that proves nothing. I would probably only get angry if my girlfriend was upset by it - if she didn't mind it wouldn't bother me either.
As for me making you sound like a neaderthal, I am genuinely sorry about that. I've lived on the continent so I just don't get why you are so uptight about it. To me it sounded like you were being over-protective.
Of course though, as a man on the continent, it is NOT the done thing to make the first move to kiss a woman you don't know's cheek. So you wouldn't have any problems with continental guys or people who knew the custom properly. As a man with a woman you don't know, you should wait to be approached. Except of course if she is married and you know her husband.
I say again though, that I would only get annoyed if it bothered my girlfriend, not because the act didn't give her a choice in the matter. I think that may be where we differ.
[hr]
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
"Can I leave it with you?"
-
Buzzboy
- Posts: 227
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by niall on Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:11 pm
on the original topic:
scottish customs:
http://home.jesus.ox.ac.uk/~rspinnle/page2.html
"O' Flower of Scotland...."
scottish customs:
http://home.jesus.ox.ac.uk/~rspinnle/page2.html
"O' Flower of Scotland...."
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niall
- Posts: 1714
- Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 1:01 am
- Location: Motherwell, Scotland
Similar thread...
by Admin on Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:57 am
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Admin
- Posts: 745
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 4:39 pm
Re:
by beetlebum on Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:57 am
[s]Amaunet wrote on 18:22, 15th Sep 2003:
I kiss my friends on the cheeks when we meet- but none of us could be described as yahs or social climbers-its just how we are. Perhaps we all ought to stop jumping to conclusions about people whom we know nothing about.
Perhaps people should actually read what has been said. There are people who do this who are obviously putting on an act. Because of this there is a stigma around doing it.
These people do do it, but not everyone who does it is one of these people.
I'm sorry but it looks quite simple to me.
I kiss my friends on the cheeks when we meet- but none of us could be described as yahs or social climbers-its just how we are. Perhaps we all ought to stop jumping to conclusions about people whom we know nothing about.
Perhaps people should actually read what has been said. There are people who do this who are obviously putting on an act. Because of this there is a stigma around doing it.
These people do do it, but not everyone who does it is one of these people.
I'm sorry but it looks quite simple to me.
-
beetlebum
Re:
by Jess on Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:00 am
[s]EviLTwiN wrote on 20:51, 15th Sep 2003:
What i'd be annoyed about is if some guy who she didn't really know came up and just did it, giving her no polite choice but to kiss back, when he clearly doesn't know me or her, or how she feels.
Would she have an obligation to kiss back? I can see how it would be rude to pull away, but to actually do the action of kissing back, when it's not something you do, seems awkward and unnecessary. As a matter of etiquette, I'm not sure one would need to follow the example the kisser has set.
Then again, no matter what way you look at it, whether or not she does in fact kiss back, it becomes a very awkward scenario. I agree with those that have said that unless you know for sure, don't do the whole kissing thing. And what's that saying.. "When in Rome do as the Romans do"... I think in all these sorts of confusing conflicts of manners, that's the best way to go, just follow the examples of natives.
Personally, I won't be living in Italy any time soon.
What i'd be annoyed about is if some guy who she didn't really know came up and just did it, giving her no polite choice but to kiss back, when he clearly doesn't know me or her, or how she feels.
Would she have an obligation to kiss back? I can see how it would be rude to pull away, but to actually do the action of kissing back, when it's not something you do, seems awkward and unnecessary. As a matter of etiquette, I'm not sure one would need to follow the example the kisser has set.
Then again, no matter what way you look at it, whether or not she does in fact kiss back, it becomes a very awkward scenario. I agree with those that have said that unless you know for sure, don't do the whole kissing thing. And what's that saying.. "When in Rome do as the Romans do"... I think in all these sorts of confusing conflicts of manners, that's the best way to go, just follow the examples of natives.
Personally, I won't be living in Italy any time soon.
-
Jess
Re:
by EviLTwiN on Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:27 am
"I say again though, that I would only get annoyed if it bothered my girlfriend, not because the act didn't give her a choice in the matter. I think that may be where we differ."
That's what I'm saying too... except that obviously if the guy doesn't know the girl well then he won't know if she'll be bothered by it, given that she's from a culture where kissing is reserved for loved ones.
However if as you say the guy doesn't approach the woman then that solves that problem.
So i agree with you pretty much.
[hr]IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif
[s]http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin [rar!]......http://www.feedbacking.com
http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin/photogallery.htm
[/s]
That's what I'm saying too... except that obviously if the guy doesn't know the girl well then he won't know if she'll be bothered by it, given that she's from a culture where kissing is reserved for loved ones.
However if as you say the guy doesn't approach the woman then that solves that problem.
So i agree with you pretty much.
[hr]IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif
[s]http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin [rar!]......http://www.feedbacking.com
http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin/photogallery.htm
[/s]
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EviLTwiN
Re:
by Buzzboy on Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:35 pm
[s]EviLTwiN wrote on 04:27, 16th Sep 2003:
"I say again though, that I would only get annoyed if it bothered my girlfriend, not because the act didn't give her a choice in the matter. I think that may be where we differ."
That's what I'm saying too... except that obviously if the guy doesn't know the girl well then he won't know if she'll be bothered by it, given that she's from a culture where kissing is reserved for loved ones.
However if as you say the guy doesn't approach the woman then that solves that problem. So i agree with you pretty much.
Good-o! Lets shake virtual hands then.
[hr]
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
"I say again though, that I would only get annoyed if it bothered my girlfriend, not because the act didn't give her a choice in the matter. I think that may be where we differ."
That's what I'm saying too... except that obviously if the guy doesn't know the girl well then he won't know if she'll be bothered by it, given that she's from a culture where kissing is reserved for loved ones.
However if as you say the guy doesn't approach the woman then that solves that problem.
So i agree with you pretty much.Good-o! Lets shake virtual hands then.
[hr]
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:
"Can I leave it with you?"
"Can I leave it with you?"
-
Buzzboy
- Posts: 227
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
80 posts
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