Formal Dress Forum

[exnihilo]

I would happily have seen it change - it has no great provenance and it's deeply ugly. Also, I don't see why black and gold have anything to do with the Society as such. I've said as much before, and pointed out that the one we use was selected for cheapness. However, what one Convenor can change another can change next year, and I wouldn't want to see a free for all, so maybe best stick with the hideous one.

[RJ Covino]

Could any of the Academical Dress boffins out there tell me just what in (spectrum) blue blazes "wool panama" is?

I phoned E&R today to arrange for the purchase of the Ph.D. togs and was told that instead of the silk that I was expecting, the gown is fabricated from this 'wool panama' substance.

Now, I've seen St Andrews dress gowns before, and they're usually of a corded silk; I didn't get silk when I rented the kit for graduation, but I assumed that was more to do with it being 'rental' rather than purchase.

I'd be most grateful especially if the FDF man inside E&R could assuage me before I part with several hundred pounds...

[hr]

http://www.ralphcovino.com

[exnihilo]

Incidentally, a redesign of the tie (possibly something with tiny crestlets or similar) would be more than possible, especially if you were to make a push to sell them to alumni as well as current members (ad in the Chronicle?), that would enable the Society to buy a far larger number (and therefore be more picky about what design) and perhaps even raise a little money.

[BasilSeal]

crestlets are a good idea. i would buy one!

[Eliot Wilson]

Yup, I might, too.

[hr]

Bill and Ted beat the Grim Reaper at Twister

Bill: "You played very well, Death, especially with your totally heavy Death robes."

Death: "Don't patronise me."

[Tom Plant]

So would I. Anything for a new tie. Rather fond of keeping black and gold though, even if only for sentimental reasons.

[Anon.]

But what crest would you have? The Society doesn't have one, and nor do either the Unviersity or the Students' Association.

[Dickie]

Quoting exnihilo from 12:34, 6th Jan 2006
Incidentally, a redesign of the tie (possibly something with tiny crestlets or similar) would be more than possible, especially if you were to make a push to sell them to alumni as well as current members (ad in the Chronicle?), that would enable the Society to buy a far larger number (and therefore be more picky about what design) and perhaps even raise a little money.

[La Jouissance]

Quoting Anon. from 11:43, 9th Jan 2006
But what crest would you have? The Society doesn't have one, and nor do either the Unviersity or the Students' Association.

I think what you mean is that none of them have a full heraldic achievement registered with the Lord Lyon. It's a bit silly to say they don't have a 'crest', when they clearly do...

[Andrew Cusack]

Quoting la jouissance from 19:59, 9th Jan 2006I think what you mean is that none of them have a full heraldic achievement registered with the Lord Lyon. It's a bit silly to say they don't have a 'crest', when they clearly do...

They clearly do not. I have never seen any Union Debating Society coat of arms at all, and neither the University nor the Students Association have crests in their coat of arms.

[Apologies for continuing to explain what many on this list already know.]

But perhaps by 'crest' you mean merely 'coat of arms'. While normally I might allow an overwhelming common usage to be accepted as proper English, the continual mistaking of crest for coat of arms or heraldic shield is one which I think must not be countenanced. A crest, for the heraldically unaware, is the device usually atop the shield of a coat of arms. I think this has been pointed out before in this thread.

To my knowledge, no university in the UK has a crest for its coat of arms, nor supporters. Among Canadian universities, I think Toronto is the only university with a crest. In the United States, the only university I can think of which has a crest (as well as supporters) is the George Washington University in DC. In this case, the crest is somewhat awkwardly the cupola from Washington's Mount Vernon estate, while the General and his wife Martha are the supporters.

The Union Debating Society has no coat of arms itself but rather uses the University's arms on a stylised cartouche. There was talk during Blair's reign on the convenorial throne of replacing this with the university-arms-in-belt style akin to the Oxford Union but nothing came of it.

[Tweedle-Dum]

Quoting Andrew Cusack from 21:31, 9th Jan 2006There was talk during Blair's reign on the convenorial throne of replacing this with the university-arms-in-belt style akin to the Oxford Union but nothing came of it.

Mainly bacause the proposed design was almost an exact copy of that of Oxford.

[hr]

Tetragrammaton is a four letter word.

[Jason Dunn]

Quoting Andrew Cusack from 21:31, 9th Jan 2006

... In the United States, the only university I can think of which has a crest (as well as supporters) is the George Washington University in DC...

How can any institution have supporters? Only an armidger can have supporters can he not?

[exnihilo]

I would imagine that in the US the rules concerning heraldry are somewhat different.

[Mr Comedy]

You can have supporters if the Queen gives her explicit permission.

[bruce]

To my knowledge, no university in the UK has a crest for its coat of arms, nor supporters. Among Canadian universities, I think Toronto is the only university with a crest.

oh lots of uk universities have full achievements instead of the armorial shield alone. these are often the poly-versities such as hertfordshire, northumbria ect ect

[Anon.]

Back to clothes: on a single-breasted two-button suit, do people favour one vent or two (or, I suppose, none)?

[Bryn]

Quoting Anon. from 15:46, 12th Jan 2006
Back to clothes: on a single-breasted two-button suit, do people favour one vent or two (or, I suppose, none)?

Two or none. Never one.

[J.C.H.]

Quoting RJ Covino from 11:53, 6th Jan 2006
Could any of the Academical Dress boffins out there tell me just what in (spectrum) blue blazes "wool panama" is?

I phoned E&R today to arrange for the purchase of the Ph.D. togs and was told that instead of the silk that I was expecting, the gown is fabricated from this 'wool panama' substance.

Now, I've seen St Andrews dress gowns before, and they're usually of a corded silk; I didn't get silk when I rented the kit for graduation, but I assumed that was more to do with it being 'rental' rather than purchase.

I'd be most grateful especially if the FDF man inside E&R could assuage me before I part with several hundred pounds...

[hr]

http://www.ralphcovino.com

Panama is a plain, finely woven worsted wool. It's made in a variety of weights and is fairly common for Official Robes (Lord Mayers and suchlike) as it's hardwearing and drapes well.

The silk on offer will most likely be corded art silk. Real silks are used for special orders and are pretty expensive - a London bachelors gown in Ottoman silk would cost nearly £3,000.

If I were you, I'd get the panama for the reasons given above, especially if you intend to wear it regularly as silk will bearly last and will fray at the sleeve cuffs after a few years of use.

Oh, and if you're ordering a readymade gown, overstate your height by a few inches, then after wearing it, take it to a tailors to be cut and finished at the length you require.

[RJ Covino]

I knew I didn't make up the phrase "corded silk"!

Sadly, the woman I spoke with on the phone didn't offer anything in the way of options. I've e-mailed E&R to enquire, but as yet have not heard back. Should an option be forthcoming, I daresay I'd choose the corded variety - one's finery should be fine, not hard-wearing, I think.

Much obliged, JCH, in any case.

[hr]

http://www.ralphcovino.com

[Anon.]

Quoting Bryn from 16:14, 12th Jan 2006

Quoting Anon. from 15:46, 12th Jan 2006
Back to clothes: on a single-breasted two-button suit, do people favour one vent or two (or, I suppose, none)?

Two or none. Never one.

Why not?