Saint editorial

[tintin]

There is quite a critical editorial in today's Saint about the Society. I couldn't have put it better myself - it was high time that someone spoke out about the sort of things people were doing. I think that the best evidence of how bad things are/were can be summed up in an alleged comment by one member that Welsh coal miners were "black-faced troglodytes". People ought to be ashamed of themselves for coming out with remarks like that, let alone actually holding this belief. It is almost like having Nick Griffin up to speak - he would effectively have been given more credibility through his association with the oldest University Debating society.

I also remember going to one of the after Debates dinners a couple of years ago in Broons, and sitting next to one of the invited speakers - quite a high profile person (sponsored by De Beers). He and his wife left early they were so embarrassed by what people were saying.

At present your attitude is really rather infantile. I've said it before a while back on the Sinner - if you want people in the outside world to take you seriously, you will have to change your it. I know of townsfolk and older students who stay away precisely because of this.

And I don't give a damn what you say to me in response to this post, because I really couldn't care less what you think of me. I'm just giving my opinion for what it's worth as someone who has lived outside the St Andrews bubble, and how an outsider might view it.

[David Bean]

All I'll say at this stage is that you appear to be mistaken in viewing the Society as a unitary entity, all of whose members are committed to infantile behaviour. Had you been at the night in question (which was discussed at length on another thread), you'd see that that wasn't the case at all, and several members of the Society who were present took the same view that Jo did.

[hr]"For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?- Matthew 16:26

[Mr Comedy]

Could I add that this is a misquote by the Saint newspaper.

[Yeats]

Any chance of a copy of what the saint says, or a gist?



[hr]
Some day we shall be glad to remember such things

[tintin]

[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 15:28, 24th Mar 2005:
Could I add that this is a misquote by the Saint newspaper.


David V - Good - I surely hope so otherwise you would have gone down in my estimation considerably.

David B - no, I wasn't at the night in question so am not qualified to comment in the way I did. However if this is the sort of press that the Society is getting, it can hardly be a good thing - nobody knows that those other people did not join in with it.

[Eliot Wilson]

I would argue in detail with what the Saint says, but I really can't be bothered. The editorial is a stinking pile of shit. Quelle surprise enorme.

[hr]Bill and Ted beat the Grim Reaper at Twister

Bill: "You played very well, Death, especially with your totally heavy Death robes."

Death: "Don't patronise me."

[Mr Comedy]

To be honest, it is of remarkably little consequence what the Saint think of me, and I don't think that they are my biggest friends anyway. So I don't find any of their opinions objective, or ever rooted in anything but a thin layer of actual truth.

[Laura]

[s]Eliot Wilson wrote on 16:33, 24th Mar 2005:
I would argue in detail with what the Saint says, but I really can't be bothered. The editorial is a stinking pile of shit. Quelle surprise enorme.



I actually thought that it hit the nail on the head- for once.

[Mr Comedy]

I've done a little more thinking, and read the editorial a few times, and I have decided that the Saint ought to endorse the UDS, and encourage this sort of activity in the future.

Making fun of people with disabilities?
How about comparing dyslexia to alcohol abuse? That's a good one.

Base toilet humour?
Has anyone read the section inevitably in ST2 every couple of weeks about sex or something similar? If this isn't below-par for our "Broadsheet quality" student newspaper, I am not sure what is.

A succesion of cock jokes making for a good time?
Let's look at how the Saint captions its pictures both now and in the past. I think you will find this one of their lead skills.

And let us not forget why they were removed from the Association in the first place.

It is of no concern to me what the Saint says, and indeed, they can misquote me to their hearts content. It would not be the first time, I must say. In fact, they haven't quoted me correctly once.
I agree that debates need change, but it is rather hypocritical of a group that regularly causes far more offence to get on its high horse and proclaim moral values.

[Midget]

POT, KETTLE, BLACK

I know this may sound rich coming from me but Dave.

You were part of this whole racist joke UDS stuff fair enough, we've all said racist jokes is our time, I know I have. But I have never sat on a committee that took a moral high ground on this issue, I've never thought myself in a position to judge or legislate over someone else. I, like you believe in liberty, but liberty for everyone. Not against Nick Griffin but pro my own racist in-jokes, not against Saint's jokes but pro my own little 'jokes' that some people really didn;t find funny.

And from what I know of your past activities you are also not in any position to make moral judgements about any individuals or gropes in St Andrews.

[Mr Comedy]

Mr. Ewin, I don't believe that any committee that I have sat on in the past has taken a moral high ground on this issue, nor do I believe that any past experiences that you allege I have been involved in invalidate me from criticising racism in the harshest tones, a subject that I do not find amusing or a joke in any circumstance.

I would keenly advise you to not make baseless accusations such as this one in the future.

For the information of those who did not attend the debate, I did not call Welsh people as the Saint claims "black faced troglodytes", and when they refer to the "Student Support Officer" (sic), they mean me. I did however say that "Coal miners have black faces and live underground", which is factually untrue as they only work underground, and do not take up residence there. That was indeed an exaggeration in terms, but one that I thought the audience would have realised. I also said that "Many coal miners were Welsh", which is entirely true. Apologies to those who I may have offended, although I am quite sure that this is just the latest product of Saint team that seem fit to blame their eviction for homophobic comments made by Mr. Ewin on me, and grossly misrepresent me.

To clarify, I have no time for racism, nor have I ever had time for racism. A misleading Saint article does not change this, nor as Mr. Ewin suggests, is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[Mr Comedy]

On page 15 of the Saint Newpaper, I am quoted as saying that the Welsh are "black faced troglodytes", which is a misquote. What I actually said was that "coal-miners have black faces and work underground", which is factually accurate (although a gross simplification), and also that "many coal miners were Welsh"; both direct quotes. I have no problems with you critiquing my speaking, but please quote me properly. Furthermore, I have no time for racism, and I never have done.
I would hope to see this error corrected in the next edition of the Saint, and an apology for insinuating that I am a racist, which is a dreadful corruption of my reputation.
I hope that this matter will be resolved forthwith.

Regards,

David J Vinton
Fomer Student Support Officer and Equal Opportunities Committee Chair.

[David Bean]

Did you at any stage refer to Welsh coalminers - or unspecified coalminers - as troglodytes during the course of the debate?

[hr]"For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?- Matthew 16:26

[Eliot Wilson]

My favourite assertions in the editorial were, firstly, that the Deabting Society was becoming more cliquey by appealing to the lowest common denominator (what?), and that, essentially, offensive jokes were OK so long as they're funny, or rather deemed to be funny by the Saint.

The Saint has excelled itself. Whatever the merits of the case against the UDS, the editorial, like many Saint editorials over the years, was ill-informed, poorly argued, holier-than-thou and borderline illiterate.

[hr]Bill and Ted beat the Grim Reaper at Twister

Bill: "You played very well, Death, especially with your totally heavy Death robes."

Death: "Don't patronise me."

[S.L.G.]

But supported by the new Convenor - so hoorah!

[Al]

I haven't read the offending article but I can't say I am surprised by the reaction to it. Editorials, and other articles, in The Saint and its predecessors have always had, at best, a tenuous grip on reality. I remember that, years ago, one female staff member wrote a piece that urged female students to approach any man - whether they knew them or not - if they were too afraid to walk home alone. Oh the fun the Association Welfare Committee had with that one...

[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.

[David Bean]

With respect, I fail to see how the editorial could have been less well-informed than the views on the subject of those who were not at the event, given that its writer was there. Also, where is the logical contradiction between cliquiness and appeal to the lowest common denominator? In abstract, there isn't any reason why the lowest common denominator can't comprise or form a clique, and the argument concerning the propagation of in-jokes would tend to support this.

Finally, I can't find the suggestion that offensive jokes are okay as long as the Saint finds them funny; my reading was that offensive jokes are by nature unfunny, and that true wit requires more than the ability to make offensive remarks about random groups of people: that whilst we should be aspire to Oscar Wilde, all we achieve is Bernard Manning.

I'm expressing no opinion here on the truth or falsity of any of these arguments, but just trying to cash them out in a different fashion.

[hr]"For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?- Matthew 16:26

[RJ Covino]

[s]David Bean wrote on 11:52, 25th Mar 2005:
whilst we should be aspire to Oscar Wilde

One presumes, then, that we should have you jailed?

(For your poor grammar, not for buggering poor Queensbury's son. of course.)

[Anon.]

[s]David Bean wrote on 11:52, 25th Mar 2005:
my reading was that offensive jokes are by nature unfunny,

This is patently not true.

and that true wit requires more than the ability to make offensive remarks about random groups of people: that whilst we should be aspire to Oscar Wilde, all we achieve is Bernard Manning.

Why would anyone aspire to be Oscar Wilde? A sad, pathetic wannabe-aristocrat who looked like (to quote the late Sir H.P. Flashman) "a frog in a toupée".

[David Bean]

[s]Anon. wrote on 15:11, 25th Mar 2005:
This is patently not true.

That it was my reading, that that was what it said, or that such jokes aren't funny?

[hr]
"For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?- Matthew 16:26