Racism

[Sudip]

I think I've said everything that there is to be said about this issue. There's no point in repeating myself over and over again.
I don't think I am over reacting to anything at all. I've given my reasons for why I think the bouncer was being racist and if you think differently, I'm cool with it. I guess the reason why we've been discussing this issue so much is because our definitions of racism aren't the same.
I am sure we've all learned a lot from what has happened and can use our newly found knowledge to prevent such incidences in the future.

[Rennie]

Yes, but Sudip, you have to accept that the boucer wasn't being racist. It's as simple as that, and until you accept that, I'm not prepared to let the matter rest.

Also, howcome you didn't respond to any of the specific points I made in my post? Is it because you didn't have anything to respond to them with?

[Milan-AC]

This seems pretty clear cut.

Sulip, if your friend tired to push past a bouncer and starts being aggressive and spitting. Then there's no way on earth he's going to get in.

You tell me, is trying to push past a bouncer ( something it sounds like you'd try if pissed off or drunk ) a smart thing to do? I know if I tried that I wouldn't have a chance of gettin in. Follow up that with slamming your card into the bouncer and you can kiss your nite goodbye whether your asian, black, euorpean, jewish, american, scottish or in my case irish. It's just the way it is. To be honest your friends lucky that the bouncer was so nice to actually TRY and relate to him by saying "Peace by with you". If I had of tried that they'd probably have grabbed me and held me there till the police came to cart me off for being drunk and disorderly, as did happen to a friend of mine at the union. The only difference being he was white and I nor he can have any qualms about him being carted off to a cell, cause he was being a dick, that simple.

All right the bouncer got it wrong, your friend wasn't a Muslim, bad luck. But hardly a reason to throw a fit and start screaming "RACIST, RACIST!!!". I know the guy in question well, and I know without doubt nor hesitation that he is NOT a racist. And to be fair I think it's massively insulting that on this evidence alone your prepared to go making hugely insulting and damaging statements like this that are 100% wrong.

I'm Irish and I get a bit of abuse for it. 99% of it tho is totally friendly and amicable. When someone comes up to me and says "Bout ya !! Big man" or "Yo, what's the craic??" I don't go and punch them in the face ( or in your friends case spit at them ) cause I know they're trying to be friendly and just generally be pleasent. On the other hand, as happened last Friday in London when I met a lad from Cork, this guy started asking me questions about whether I was Protestant and calling me a killer and "Brtish" and how I fuck off back home, I can reasonable guess he's a bigot and generally a bit of a cunt. And your going to make that judgement for someone saying "Peace be with you" ( or however it can be translated )?


As for him apologsing. How much weight do you want to put to that? He's there to keep the peace. However he sees fit to do so. Whether it's trying to relate to ppl or ppls he knows or knows about. Or by ensuring there isn't a massive kick off with the police involved outside the union. I totally agree with Rennie here, he's sorry there was a misunderstanding, and nothing more, because he is guilty of nothing more.

I mean I think you should look at this with open eyes. If your friend trys to walk past the bouncers without showing his card he's not doing himself any favours. They're not going to let him in, and to be honest him trying to do something like that is usually a sign of being drunk or aggressive. I wasn't there so don't know, but that's certainly how it seems, you tell me do you try and push thru doors without showing your card? Follow that up with pushing the card into the bouncer, does that sound like your friend was being civilised? I think not.
As for the "A Salaam Walaikum brother" comment. Maybe it was misguided but I'll bet my life on it that he didn't say it in a nasty way. I think you should take a step back from this and realise that if your friends being unreasonable then there's no sense in defending him.

To be honest the more I read about this the more sickened I am. This is a wholey despressing thread. Racism is a disgrace but so is this form of attack on this boucner. At the very worst this was a misunderstanding and so you've tried to drag his good name thru the mud and risk his livelyhood without so much of a care for what the facts are.

I dare you to go meet him. Talk to him, and see what sort of person he's like. You mentioned the Asiansociety, maybe you should have a nite out with me, the bouncer in question and a member of your committee, Raja Sahni. Who btw is a good friend of mine. And knows Rennie and the bouncer in question quite well. Infact we all play/played for the same footie team in St Andrews. But hell you didn't think to try and find that out did you? No, didn't think so.


If I were you I'd apologse for what you've said. Cause this bouncer certainly deserves one from what you've said about him.

[Paranoid]

I was hoping to find a civilised discussion about the issue of racism when I first saw this thread, its a pitty its dissolved into this sort of victimisation...

[Cain]

[s]Paranoid wrote on 19:38, 7th Sep 2003:
I was hoping to find a civilised discussion about the issue of racism when I first saw this thread, its a pitty its dissolved into this sort of victimisation...


true. and the point of rehashing an incident that happened several weeks ago is..? sounds like its been done and dusted.

This summer, I am mostly learning how to move on with my life. I would recommend it to most people.

The area where i come from (Aberdeenshire) is the most racially diverse in terms of ethnic groups represented (not in terms of number of people).

Yet, in all the time that i was at school, we had 1 non white family there. They didn't have any problems with racism, and the kids were as just a part of the school life as you would expect kids to be. as a group of rural kids, we were far more likely to pick on the folk from Aiberdeen (sic) who had really strong accents than anybody else.

[hr]
I hold an element of surprise

[Milan-AC]

Sadly as is it is in real life, on these message boards, he who shouts loudest gets listened to, no matter what they have to say.

Sad to see this thread taken over by things like the above when the cases of true racism are so much more important.

I'm sorry if I don't have as much to say about these terrible incidents but I really wanted to defend my friend above from a totally unreasonable attack.

All I can say here is tell the police. These days they take incidents very seriously and rightly so.

I know it may seem scary but it has to be done to deter these ppl from doing it. I tell ya it should put the fear of god in them and make them realise that attacks like this are totally unacceptable. So if not to protect yourself, it'll at least (hopefully) prevent someone else from suffering the same treatment.
I don't know that much the procedures tho I have a friend in the police and can find out if needs be ( email me anytime on cjh17 ). I'd imagine that they'll protect your identity if you were just to make a complaint, tho you'd more than likely have to step forward if you were to have any serious action taken.

Don't give up on St Andrews. Honestly there are some totally great ppl here. I had a miserable 1st year for other reasons and I can only say that with a bit of luck my 2nd year was amazing ( all the more amazing given I was put in the same room as the year before ). A total turn around, so it can happen.

I can't say I've been a victim of any serious racism ( given that the Irish don't suffer that much, and when I say I'm from Belfast ppl don't know how to take it ) but I have been there when my asian ( generally Pakistani ) friends have suffered.

One incident that sticks in my mind is when me and a friend were walkin down an alleyway we walked past 2 guys and a girl. All of which were smaller than us. They didn't say anything and continued about their business as we walked past, it was only when we got to the bottom of the alley that one of them started screaming obsenities about my Pakistani friend. I don't think I've ever been so angry. I was a perfect example of the cowardess of these ppl. They could have said something when we were right there, but didn't. They knew that we couldn't go back after them cause they'd run straight into a passage to a pub which me and my friend simply couldn't enter given who we were ( we were wearing uniforms at the time ). Those ppl are scum, a classic example of gutless cowards, the perfect example of a racist.

For such a disgraceful and blatent example of racism at it's worst you should go to the police. No other way is going to work. These ppl are criminals and need to be treated as such. Even if the police can only go and have a word with them, just a quiet warning about their behaviour it might even be enough to make them think. Or at the least think twice before doing it again.


If your unsure of what to do under the circumstances or you don't want to involve the police, maybe a call to someone who might know some other methods which could work. I think we have an Ethnicity ( I can't spell ) Officer in the union, maybe they'd know more. Or indeed I've always found that SSS are ready to listen to whatever problems anyone might have.
They might be able to suggest alternative means to deal with the problem. I'm sorry I'm a bit narrow minded in my advice.

Just as a side note however, and of course this doesn't apply to the unknown_gal the starter of this thread and harmless loony and victims of true and proper racism, but I hope equally ppl are careful not to go off and start making unfair statements like the one aimed at my friend above.
I'm Irish and I know I don't suffer as much as most, but I know the difference when someone comes up to me in a bar ( as happened on Friday ) and calls me a Protestant c**t, a killer, scum, etc etc etc. And when someone comes up to me and makes a light hearted joke about pealing potatos, or wants me to say "cow" in my Irish accent. If I know the difference I hope others can too.


Anyway, if harmless looney or unknown_gal want to email me about this please do so on cjh17, like I said, I think I might know a few ppl that could help.

[Milan-AC]

god I'm tired typing now.

Just to finish with what paranoid said, sorry I didn't have time to post 2 both messages at the sametime, but it takes time to write them.

And I made such an issue of the accusations about my friend cause this is a serious thing, not something trivia. To make claims like that you have to be right! Now usually this is a clear and cut thing it's pretty easy to say when someones being racist or not. But this person wasn't being in anyway racist, and claims like this hangover you. The old saying is there's no smoke without fire and ppl are going to start worrying that bouncers at the union are racist when this ( at least in relation to the ones I know ) isn't the case.

[harmless loony]

Thanks for the offer of support, but at this precise moment in time I think I want to just forget about the whole thing. I've had a lot of soul searching going on this summer, and almost accepted a transfer to Manchester a few weeks ago. However, I've decided that I will not quit (cos I'm no quitter) and I won't let some mindless idiot ruin my chance of having a successful 2nd (and 3rd and 4th) year.(I have a whole lot of celidhing to do yet and other things to get involved in!!!) As far as I am concerned I will keep well away from the individual that I had a problem with and try to focus on what is important in my life. But like I said before, I am always willing to offer people support.

Earlier in the summer I spoke to someone from the council for racial equality in my local area. They gave me lots of advice on what to do if it happens again and the contact details of their colleague in Scotland.

I've been watching this thread develop over the past few days and I have to say I don't honestly know what to make of it. I'm personally surprised by the assertion that a bouncer from the union would be racist in full public view.

Secondly, I don't understand why the person was offended by the greeting "assalamu laikum", (and why they feel that this is racist in the first place.) Although he may not have said it at the start of the conversation with him, I'm guessing (out on a limb) that he may have hoped to try and strike some form of familiarity with the person in question , in the hope that they would calm down.

In the past I have had people say "namastay" (a Hindu greeting) or "sassriyakar" (a sikh greeting) but I personally have never been offended by this - in fact I find it interesting and reassuring that someone is trying to make an effort to make another feel welcome. I don't understand how anyone could be insulted by the term "peace be with you", but then again I wasn't at the incident and I can only judge by the comments on this thread.

But I do hope that the Asian Society can help to develop a positive image around St.Andrews and advise its members on what to do if they do suffer an incident (although I still feel that racial incidents in St.Andrews are a rarity and I certainly don't think it's the norm - it's just some unlucky individuals who have found themselves targetted. I know a great many number of asians and blacks who have not had any problem at all). I know I am planning to do the same with the Islamic Society, as given the current level of political scaremongering and stupidity, I fear that some of the freshers may have concerns about racism when they arrive.

But just to repeat, if anyone wants advice or just to talk about something affecting them then they are always welcome to contact me through the Sinner.

PS: I didn't think an ethnic minorities officer (or whatever the name of the post is) was elected in the elections this time round?? Anyone care to correct me?

[Cain]

[s]harmless loony wrote on 20:56, 7th Sep 2003:
PS: I didn't think an ethnic minorities officer (or whatever the name of the post is) was elected in the elections this time round?? Anyone care to correct me?


it's the sinner; of course somebody will care to correct you. just sit back and wait, somebody's probably scurrying off to the union website as we speak.

I'm quite lucky in that the person who, at the end of last year, i never wanted to see again has graduated. didn't stop me from bumping into her last week though.

are you a sikh? i have one sikh mate in Glasgow and she always gets a bit narked at being mistaken for a hindu. give her fifteen minutes and she'll put anybody right about it though.

right on with the no quitting. Quitters never win, and winners never quit.

look forward to getting to know you next year.

[hr]
I hold an element of surprise

[Paranoid]

Just to say Milan_AC that my previous comment wasnt having a go at your justification for the bouncer, in fact I'm glad that you've helped to clear the matter up as I feel a bit guilty for giving my initial knee jerk reaction to the first accusation, I'm just sorry that yet another thread has ended up in another squabble, the issue of racism is a serious one, but telling the world about one particular instance and targeting a select group of ppl(or staff) is not the way to go about tackling it. I'm glad to see there are people out there wanting to help though, I can't say I have many contacts or advice to really give, I grew up in the middle-east and have never even pondered a racist remark, and so from that I can only offer you all my guarantee that you won't find me picking on any 'coloured' or foreign ppl, and I think that would be the same for all my friends in St.Andrews. AC, whereabouts in aberdeenshire are you? I live up there too, heard of Banchory?

[harmless loony]

Cain, if you read my earlier posts you will see I'm Muslim!! hehehe

But I do have a few Sikh mates at uni and have spent quite a lot of time with Sikh people this summer as I have my own Duke of Edinburgh Gold award group down here, comprising of Sikh and Muslim lads. (It has been a weird experience telling a group of 6ft lads what to do and when to do it!!) lol!

[Cain]

[s]harmless loony wrote on 21:14, 7th Sep 2003:
Cain, if you read my earlier posts you will see I'm Muslim!! hehehe


oops.

paranoid, AC, i'm from the NE as well. heard of Laurencekirk?

[hr]
I hold an element of surprise

[Paranoid]

god laurencekirk? You must be hitting your head against a brick wall by now, I'm struggling enough with Banchory as it is!!!

[Milan-AC]

That's no worries Paranoid, I know it must have seemed like I was just there to defend my friend and have a go at someone, just wanted to get that done then move onto racism and it took me quite a while to type it. As for my 1 example just wanted to show how I hate racism. And it was an example of how I was just embarassed and powerless against it, a reason for my hatred of racists.

That's really good news Harmless, good to know your not lettin some knob get to you. Like I said there are plenty of good ppl round St Andrews. No need 1 person to ruin it for you. I had a miserable 1st year and was lucky to fall in with a great crowd in 2nd year and before I knew it I was lovin it. You should look into the Asiansoceity, guy that runs it is a top bloke.
We should all go out and meet up sometime.
Think helping the Islamic Society is a really good idea. It'd be nice if new freshers first impression to St Andrews is a positive one and they know there are ppl there which they can relate to.

I'm not actually from the NE or anywhere near Aberdeenshire, I'm from Northern IReland itself. Sunny East Belfast infact............ and now I'm hoping none of the afor mentioned places are in NI or I'll look well stupid :-O

[Sudip]

Woah 33 posts!

Okay, I haven't read all the posts in detail. There are a few posts from people that know the bouncer in question. According to them and others the guy who we're talking about is NOT a racist. I think I been proven wrong and have no other choice but to accept that the guy truely ISN'T a racist. I would like to apologise for making false accusations. There was obviously a lot of misunderstanding and I don't want to stir up more hate.

From cases like this we get a clearer picture as to how sensitive the issue of racism is. I think we all should be careful about what we say to others especially people we don't know.

If we realise that we're misunderstood then we should make an attempt at clearing it up. It's great that we had a chat about this and managed to sort out a few differences through words rather than punches. I'd like to thank Rennie for taking the time to clear things up (and mobilising his friends to write on this board ). However, I will not accept that what the bouncer said was appropriate at the time.

Peace be upon you.

[Cain]

[s]Paranoid wrote on 22:37, 7th Sep 2003:
god laurencekirk? You must be hitting your head against a brick wall by now, I'm struggling enough with Banchory as it is!!!


i've been working for the entire summer at Macphies of Glenbervie, and i am so glad that there are only 4 more days left to run on my contract.

if it wasn't for the sinner, i would have been bored to tears.

[Paranoid]

Ditto, I finish work a week on Wednesday though, then straight off to St.A! At least I've been working in Aberdeen...

[hr]..I've got this pain down all the diodes on my left side...

[Rennie]

Hi Sudip,

No problems, and no ill feeling. The boucer apologised if he was misunderstood, and I just wanted to say how I thought it went.

See you next year.

[Abracadabra]

I'm so glad things seem to have got cleared up on this board.

The bouncers in the Union do a wonderful job (I certainly don't envy them) and I was really glad that we managed to get people from both sides to sort things out in a civil and mature manner.

I was shocked when I first discovered there was even an issue of racism per se in St Andrews since I've never come across it in all my time here.

While it is an extremely serious issue I also believe that all too often, people over-play the race card in situations that have nothing to do with race or religion, and that that can be almost as bad as an act of true racism. It trivialises the issue and makes people less sympathetic to the real victims. I think the fact that the post started as a result of a real act of racism and became a blame shifting exercise is testament to this.

If something good can come out of all of this mess then it was worthwhile. It is obviously an issue that people feel strongly about (me included), and it's good to have healthy discussion as I think it makes people appreciate other (equally valid) viewpoints and understand each other better.

I'm a dreamer. I know I am 'cos I'm always being accused of being one by everyone (well an unrealistic idealistic romantic at least) but let's hope there's no repeats, eh?

Bring on Fresher's Week I say...

[stan]

[s]Pussycat wrote on 11:29, 7th Sep 2003:
[s]Rennie wrote on 11:27, 7th Sep 2003:[i]
As a side note, I find that Scottish people, mainly locals, seem to be quite racist in their views.

Really? I've always found that Scottish people, especially the locals are extremely non-racist. Especially in Fife I would say.
[/i]

really? i would agree with rennie here, an example being those patronising adverts that say we musnt let scotland down by being racist "one scotland many cultures" etc... you dont get anything like them in the rest of the uk - except the tree hugging stuff ive seen in the province but thats a different kettle of the same fish.

from what i recall of your previous posts pussycat but i believe you are scottish and have lived in scotland all your life. im gonna go out on a limb here and suggest tat maybe youte ignorant of the level in scotland because you havnt seen the level elsewhere. just a thought.

and to harmless loony all i can say is you support liverpool... ill save my scouser jokes for when we are watching the footie!