Racism

[Pussycat]

[s]stan wrote on 11:18, 9th Sep 2003:
from what i recall of your previous posts pussycat but i believe you are scottish and have lived in scotland all your life. im gonna go out on a limb here and suggest tat maybe youte ignorant of the level in scotland because you havnt seen the level elsewhere. just a thought.

On what level does that make sense? I have seen a lot of places in this world and I have seen awful racism, even in Scotland. However it is nowhere near as bad as other places, and I have rarely seen it in Fife. Hardly ever in my entire life.

So no I don't think its a big issue locally. I went to a few different schools round here and never came across it in any of them, which wasn't due to me walking around with my eyes close.

I feel sorry for those who have suffered but I think it isimportant to emphasise that Fife is not a racist area.

[Al]

I would think it much more likely that someone who has lived in Scotland all, or most of, their life would better know the facts than someone who has not. Nobody is denying that there are racists in Scotland. Nobody is denying there are racists in Fife. It would be impossible for this not to be true. However, there is considerably less of a problem in Scotland in general, and Fife in particular, than in other areas and countries.

And what is that nonsense about the adverts? On one hand you attack Scotland as a country with a problem over racism, and then attack the Executive for trying to do something about it. Surely, if the problem is as bad as you claim, you should be applauding any attempts to better educate the population, shouldn't you?

[hr]"Rest is not idleness, and to lie sometimes on the grass on a summer day listening to the murmur of water, or watching the clouds float across the sky, is hardly a waste of time".

[Rennie]

I think the racism in Scotland isn't your 'march down the road and set fire to Asian/Black/Chinese businesses', it's more subtle than that. Locals that I know personally, will refer to Asians as P**** and Black people are 'coloured', because that's what they're used to doing - they aren;t saying it to 'be racist'.

To me it's more because of under-exposure to different cultures in Scotland, where I live (Manchester - but this could apply to the North West of england in general) you find there's either extreme racists, or non racists - there's very few people in the middle.

Al, don't you find those adverts amazingly patronizing? They make me laugh whenever I see one. If you have to 'educate' people through shitty TV adverts, then maybe you need to rethink your education system to let it get into that state in the first place. The adverts are a practically a complete waste of money in my opinion, and in the opinion of many people I have mentioned it to

[Neferet]

The adverts are mostly aimed at children or so I was informed. It's mostly to point out to kids that just because their parents act like that, it doesn't make it right.

It's a lot to do with anti bullying too. The ads may be patronising to the majority of us but there are folk who speak like that without thinking twice, especially those a couple of generations older. They're not racist, just set in their ways.

I think its important for young kids to know which words are bad because they can repeat them without knowing they are wrong or the consequences.

[stan]

neferet and rennie have hit the nail on the head. i was not saying that fifers engage in overt physical and verbal atttacks on different cultures. i was saying those patronising adverts are a symptom of something deeper. as neferet said its those set in their ways who are prejudice in a manner they see as innocent and but dont stop to think of the consequences to those on the recieving end. as rennie said its the vernacular of many scots that is most striking when compared to down south. really al, i didnt think i needed to spell everything out with diagrams and maps for someone like yourself who claims to know more than we.

pussycat, like i said i were going out on a limb. no offense intended but i do stick by my 'guess' based on wat i remember from your other posts. i think that perhaps you are not aware of how high the level can be around here. just re-read this thread; stories of racism and prejudice beguilled to the immediate response by all that it must be locals - which does conflict with your assertation on local fifers attitude. if you have taken offense to this all i can do is apologise, but until a weightier arguement than mine is forwarded i will stick with what ive so far said.

[Pussycat]

What weightier arguement can I have other than that I have lived here most of my life? I never said racism did not occur, I said that there is much less in Scotland compared to elsewhere and much less in Fife compared to the rest of Scotland.

Now considering I know a lot of people in Fife, going out on a limb I'd say well over 100 maybe 200 people...considering I went to school here, considering I know many people of all different generations, then I can quite safely say that Fife is a very non racist place compared to others in the country.

There might not be a great diversity of different people here unlike other places but I have never come across anyone at school suffering because of it, I have rarely if ever come across anyone at Uni suffering from it.

I have lived in many different areas of Fife, from council estates to family suburbs and never have I come across anyone acting in an offensive manner racially. This is not to say it does not happen but it does show it to be a rare event.

To give a better example, my grandparents have lived in Fife for nearly 50 years. Before that they lived in Glasgow where many of my family live still. Is there racism in Galsgow? Well dur. But how often have my grandparents come across racist acts in Fife? Not many and only a handful were serious in all that time. Could that be said for many other areas? I don't think so.

The only discrimination that Fife suffers from badly is class discrimination. Calling someone a ned or yah is perfectly acceptable, but again it is insulting someone over not who they are but what they are. But racism? You'll struggle to find anywhere with as many people as Fife has with less racism.

[Neferet]

Oh I forgot to put in my post: I would also say Fife is one of the least racist places around. It does happen which is still bad, but very very rarely compared to elsewhere which is good.

[Al]

I cannot believe that anyone could seriously suggest that racism does not happen "down South", or that the problem in Fife is worse than in urban England. Are you really saying that people "down South" do not use possibly hurtful terms without realising the harm done?

Yes, the adverts probably do seem patronising to us but we are all educated people, and not really the target audience.

[hr]"Rest is not idleness, and to lie sometimes on the grass on a summer day listening to the murmur of water, or watching the clouds float across the sky, is hardly a waste of time".

[Abracadabra]

Racism is something that is largely borne out of pure ignorance of other people and other cultures - people are inherently neophobic.

Manchester is definitely a melee of different cultures and people, like most big cities - I know, being a Manchester gal myself - and people are much more used to seeing people different to themselves.

Whilst it is a good first step to recognise people from other cultures, it shouldn't stop there - there are still a lot of barriers to be broken.

For example, there is still a great deal of racism in Manchester, and other big cities, as many people hold stereotypical views of others. This is just as damaging, as people are not recognised as individuals and these stereotypes are often derogatory or used in a derogatory sense.

There is a large Asian population in Manchester and growing gangs of Asian youths that people, both Asian and non-Asian, are afraid of. These youths' activities go by unchecked as even the police is scared to approach them for fear of (yet more) accusations of 'institutional' racism.

Yes racism is a sensitive topic, but all too often, it is dealt with badly because people side-step the issue and walk on eggshells to cover their backsides. This achieves nothing and is making Manchester a bit of a scary place to be in at times.

Racism is very very prevalent, perhaps in some places more than others, but what's the point in fighting over where it's worst, when you could be concetrating on ways to alleviate the growing problem?

Yet again, people are getting bogged down in peripheral issues and neglecting the real one.

[Alex Muir]

I am the bouncer who was involved in this incident.

I am on holiday in Turkey at the moment so this will be a somewhat rushed reply.

The reasons I inýtýaly turned the two gentlement ýn questýon away were threefold:

1) they approached the door referrýng to a prevýous ýncýdent at the unýon when they were refused entry and ý belýeved that they were lookýng to contýnue thýs ýncýdent.

2) they trýed to walk past me and ýgnored a request to show me theýr matrýculatýon card.

3) when a matrýculatýon card was produced by one of the two, it was pushed into my chest violently.

I said wa alaikum assalaam as I believed that i heard one of the two say assalaam alaikum to his friend to calm him down.

If you wish to discuss this matter further, please email me or come and see me.

[Abracadabra]

I think it's really big of you to come forward and offer to be available for comment but I also think you should be enjoying yourself if you're on holiday you wee sweetie instead of letting this ruin it. You're certainly not being paid to be a bouncer now - so I think you're going way beyond the call of duty. I think the issue was basically resolved before you stepped in, if that helps (though as an outsider I might be corrected on this one).

So take care and enjoy the rest of your Summer - we'll be back to the hard grind in no time

PS. That is some crazy Turkish writing! Hee hee

I can't honestly imagine why anyone would want to be a bouncer, unless the pay's really good. You must have to put up with a helluva lot. It'd be a nice quiet job in TESCO for me...

[Rennie]

They pay us fuck all really. Compared to Manchester, where you get about 11 an hour.

Abra... where abouts in Manchester are you from?

The crazy writing is because for some reason the Turkish keyboards have a y with an accent instead of an i, I experienced the same problem when I went to Turkey last year

[Abracadabra]

Yeah I guessed that was the reason. The other Alex (does this get confusing after a couple of beers????????) also sounds like such a sweetie - I definitely wouldn't be faffing about on some Uni messageboard if I was in Turkey!

I live about half an hour to an hour away from the centre of Manchester, depending on the traffic. It's a brill place to shop and to go out!!! Have you been to the new Harvey Nicks yet? QUITE an experience I tell you - saw the most revolting carpet-shaped-like-a-jacket for almost 2000 pounds. Mind you, the main reason I was there was to spot young single men able to afford that kind of tat!

I live North of Manchester, quite a bit away really, but for some people, it's quite a stretch knowing where Manchester is (I can't talk, my British geography is well pants) so I just say I'm from there.

What about you?

Why on earth do you work your ass off as a bouncer then? The TESCO uniform aint THAT bad is it?????

[Rennie]

I live in Gorton, which is about 5-10 mins away from the centre.

I do the bouncer's job mainly because I like it. It's quite relaxed if you know what you're doing, and treat people with respect. You're dealing with mostly intelligent people anyway so reasoning normally works well.

However, saying that, I also work on the door at the Vic occasionally. Which is a different kettle of fish.

Tesco's is just too much like hard work for my liking!

[Paranoid]

I agree about the vic!! The amount of times I've heard drunken 'older' folk coming out yelling obsenities at the bouncers, its disgusting...puts the students to shame and all!

[hr]..I've got this pain down all the diodes on my left side...

[LeopardSkinQueen]

The one time I've actually been seriously harassed in St Andrews was in the Vic, by a local, who kept following me around, grabbing my hair. It was bloody wierd.

[hr][s]When they knock on your front door, how're you gonna come? With your hands on your head- or on the trigger of your gun?
[/s]

[stan]

[s]Al wrote on 17:26, 9th Sep 2003:
I cannot believe that anyone could seriously suggest that racism does not happen "down South",
never suggested this, to whom are you refering?

or that the problem in Fife is worse than in urban England.
yes and no. places like st andrews no; places like kirkcaldy and glenrothes yes. i have just given up and going to these places. compared to urban england; again yes and no. more tolerance prevails in places like newcastle, yet its nearest neighbour is synonamous (spelling?) with racism. i was saying that scotland on the whole appears to be more so than down south on the whole. question, does the phrase down south relate to wales? have always wondered.

Are you really saying that people "down South" do not use possibly hurtful terms without realising the harm done?
once again you do not need things spelt out to you so ill not insult you by pointing out that this is in fact not what i said.

Yes, the adverts probably do seem patronising to us but we are all educated people, and not really the target audience.
[/i]
this is true, i hope.

and to pussycat i simply apologise for any offence.

as a sidenote the only local in st andrews i know and go drinking with is mixed race. i have seen im recive subtle abuse, he has told me of abuse he recieved at madras and i have seen him get annoyed when, at work, someone of the older generation said the rhyme:
eany, meany miny mo. catch a n*gger by the toe whilst choosing what to eat. it is these kind of incidents that shape my opinion of the level of racism here.

[LeopardSkinQueen]

Racism on the 'mainland' is nothign compared to what it's like over here in Norn Iron.

Neo-nazism is becoming more and more prevalent, with many groups publishing and distributing material with the swastika. A few weeks ago, some Muslim families were forced out of their homes.

It was never a visible problem before, but that was mainly due to the fact that there was next to no black or asian people in Belfast- but over the last few years, more have moved here. Its just allowed a long term attitude to reveal itself. Its disgusting.

[hr][s]When they knock on your front door, how're you gonna come? With your hands on your head- or on the trigger of your gun?
[/s]

[Sudip]

The number of recorded racist incidents has increased over the last five years. The Police recorded 2,731 racist incidents in Scotland in 2000/2001, up from 2,242 the previous year (Central Research Unit, Scottish Executive).

There were 409 assaults and one attempted murder reported in 2000/2001, again more than that of the previous year. Many incidents of racism are not reported.

A recent survey (System 3, 2002) found that 1 in every 25 Scots acknowledge that they have perpetrated racist abuse. Some Scots would support moves to return migrants to their country of origin (Scotland on Sunday, 2002)

The number of reported racist assaults in Scotland has more than doubled in the past year and non-white people were more than three times as likely to be victimised by groups of four or more perpetrators, than white people.

[Pussycat]

There is also the fact though that many people just cry racist when the crime has nothing to do with the colour of the skin.

See the South Park episode with "hate crimes - a savage hypocrisy". Wise words from the 2D ones.