"Abortion = Deliberate Killing = Murder" ?

[Greebo]

[s]Wong wrote on 13:21, 10th Feb 2005:
Dolphins can as well. (Amazing what you can pick up on the Internet.)


Bonobos too - they at it like rabbits (...rabbits too?)

But then Paul here probably thinks that we should not be comparing ourselves to nature because man is obviously above all that.

[hr]
http://www.greebo.org.uk - Loadsa drunken photos and suchlikes.

[Paul]

Haven't we all got our knickers in a twist!

For clarification:

1. I did not say that sex should not be pleasurable - only that its prime purpose was procreation.

And Rome agrees - Remember, they are opposed to contraception - and yes, they do want to increase the number of Roman Catholics in the world as well!

2. The Biblical position on sex is that it is to be kept for marriage:

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." - Genesis 2:24

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." - Matthew 19:4-6

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." - Exodus 20:14

"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29


3. The reason that abortion has become such an issue is that sex is being pursued for the sake of pleasure - outside the Biblical guide-lines. That is, the pursuit of pleasure is being placed over and above the instructions from God.

Hence this quotation, which shows that we are living in the last days:

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection," - [both to members of the opposite sex or to the unborn] - " trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;" - I Timothy 3:1-4


[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7

[the racing tortoise]

do you realise that whenever I see a bible quote on this page I skip it and the rest of your post....I don't think i am alone in doing this.

[hr]never forget I probably don't have a clue.

[Senethro]

Credulous fool.

[Greebo]

lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God

You say that like it's a bad thing


[hr]http://www.greebo.org.uk - Loadsa drunken photos and suchlikes.

[Cain]

i agree with Rae's post - pretty much any woman can be a mother at pretty much any time (within a large window) but not every woman can be a mum - why should they be made to be if they aren't prepared/fit for it.


[hr]
I hold an element of surprise

[amac]

[s]the racing tortoise wrote on 20:13, 10th Feb 2005:
do you realise that whenever I see a bible quote on this page I skip it and the rest of your post....I don't think i am alone in doing this.


I've started doing the same.

[David Bean]

[s]Paul wrote on 19:27, 10th Feb 2005:
"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29


The hell? Don't you realise that even the Church itself views this quotation as an embarassment, and has taken great pains to distance itself from it? In fact, have you actually read it? It says that if I decide to rape an unbetrothed virgin and get caught, I can buy her for a wife from her father. How the Devil do you justify that for public policy?

[hr]
"Fiat justicia ruat coelum (let justice be done though the heavens may fall)" - Judge James Horton (family motto)

[fran]

I haven't read all of the posts (so I'm not entirely sure, whether I'm posting something that has been said before), but I really disagree with guys posting on this subject. First of all, you'll never be in the position. Secondly, how many of you are SERIOUSLY planning to take three years or longer out of work to raise a child? How many of you had a father who did that and was really there for you and didn't make work his main priority? How much involved in house work and child raising are most fathers? From all evidence even in most Western societies still not much. Even in the already extremely rare cases where women ask the fathers of their unborn whether they want it, it's even rarer for them to say yes.

[fran]

QUOTE "By calling the Bible a work of fiction, you are calling God a liar!"

Has it ever occured to you that there are quite a lot of people out there who don't believe that God exists????
And BTW, God didn't write the bible. Some HUMANS wrote it down. And even for believers: Humans still can fail. Bad memory, own interests, changing morals. WHich is why there isn't only one evangelium, but several. Different viewpoints, different men.

[Greebo]

[s]fran wrote on 15:00, 11th Feb 2005:
I haven't read all of the posts (so I'm not entirely sure, whether I'm posting something that has been said before), but I really disagree with guys posting on this subject. First of all, you'll never be in the position. Secondly, how many of you are SERIOUSLY planning to take three years or longer out of work to raise a child? How many of you had a father who did that and was really there for you and didn't make work his main priority? How much involved in house work and child raising are most fathers? From all evidence even in most Western societies still not much. Even in the already extremely rare cases where women ask the fathers of their unborn whether they want it, it's even rarer for them to say yes.


Ok so I'll never support the pro-choice case for abortion again? Don't be ridiculous.

Also - if I ever have children, I would love to spend 3 years out of work raising them but as the current law stands in the uk I'd be entitled to 2 weeks of paternity leave. Mothers get a year if they want it (plus an additional 13 weeks parental leave).

Either way, for most parents it's not feasible for both parents to take time off work at the same time to raise kids, especially not over a period of 3 years.

Now please understand that I am NOT saying that because of this situation, mothers should be the ones to stay at home and raise the kids, just that the law makes little provision for a father to stay at home and raise children.

Of course, outside the maternity leave period is a different matter - it's fairly easy for at least 1 parent to take time off work, so long as the other parent is earning enough to support the entire family....mind you in many cases they can't - hence the popularity of nurseries.

Should probably stop there before another thread veers far off course.

[hr]
http://www.greebo.org.uk - Loadsa drunken photos and suchlikes.

[David Bean]

[s]fran wrote on 15:00, 11th Feb 2005:
I haven't read all of the posts (so I'm not entirely sure, whether I'm posting something that has been said before), but I really disagree with guys posting on this subject.

Yes, that shows. The point has already been raised, and defeated soundly.

[hr]
"Fiat justicia ruat coelum (let justice be done though the heavens may fall)" - Judge James Horton (family motto)

[Paul]

[s]fran wrote on 15:08, 11th Feb 2005:
QUOTE "By calling the Bible a work of fiction, you are calling God a liar!"

Has it ever occured to you that there are quite a lot of people out there who don't believe that God exists????


Yes, but then I also know what God says about them: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." - Psalm 14:1a and 53:1a. "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:" - Psalm 5:5a

"Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." - Psalm 2:10-12


And BTW, God didn't write the bible. Some HUMANS wrote it down. And even for believers: Humans still can fail. Bad memory, own interests, changing morals. WHich is why there isn't only one evangelium, but several. Different viewpoints, different men.


"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." - II Timothy 3:16-17

There is only one way: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6

And yes, I know that not all of you read the quotations from the bible, but Christians are told to use them, for: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Romans 10:17.

And we are commanded to do it, whether people listen or not: "And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious." - Ezekiel 2:7



[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7

[Dr Strangelust]

Paul, Ive heard a rumour that you're the guy who bellows gospel on Market Street. Is this true? If so PLEASE stop. Whoever it is does it right outside my flat and it's increadibly anoying. Alternatively, give me your address and I will bellow passages from a book of my choice outside. The book will be Harry Potter or Philip Pullman's "Dark Materials".

[johness]

Ok, Paul, I appreciate you feel passionately and strongly about what you're saying but can we have it in your own words? That's what they always tell you to do at school.

[hr][s]oh these days i wish i was six again, make me a red cape, I want to be superman. Whatever happened to my lunchbox?[/s]

[Wong]

Paul, in the post above yours, it was mentioned that not everyone lives according to the rules laid out in the Bible, and so basing your argument solely on randomly bolded quotes from it isn't going to sway anyone's opinion.

[hr]No tree has branches so foolish as to fight among themselves

[Paul]

[s]Dr Strangelust wrote on 23:28, 12th Feb 2005:
Paul, Ive heard a rumour that you're the guy who bellows gospel on Market Street. Is this true?

No.

[Greebo]

[s]Wong wrote on 23:29, 12th Feb 2005:
Paul, in the post above yours, it was mentioned that not everyone lives according to the rules laid out in the Bible, and so basing your argument solely on randomly bolded quotes from it isn't going to sway anyone's opinion.


Hehehe!
Needed that this morning - cheers!

[hr]
http://www.greebo.org.uk - Loadsa drunken photos and suchlikes.

[Greebo]

The bible according to bold (at least up until a few posts back where things weren't as funny):



Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee. Thee, thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow.

And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, children [for?] children. And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people and hands that shed innocent blood.

Man them, one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

And God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply. Be fruitful, and multiply. Be fruitful and multiply, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.

[hr]http://www.greebo.org.uk - Loadsa drunken photos and suchlikes.

[fran]

"Paul, in the post above yours, it was mentioned that not everyone lives according to the rules laid out in the Bible, and so basing your argument solely on randomly bolded quotes from it isn't going to sway anyone's opinion. "

LOL! very well said.