why to vote Tory rather than Labour

[Big X]

well, its simple, you do well in life, start your own business, your business grows, it becomes big in a few years. soon enough you start earning over 100 000 a year. you deserve it. yet labour and the lib dems want to take more and more away from your pay check in order to pay for the wasters who live off the state. WHY?? you've done well in life, you've created/worked your way up in a business which employs lots more people who in turn pay income and evey other tax. i'll be in for some abuse but to be honest, i dont care. i highly intend upon using my degree to earn a shit load of cash and i dont think people should be punished for doing well in life. just tax everyone the same, then everyone is paying the same percentage of their earnings and not being singled out for doning well.

Big X

edited for some really poor punctuation
[hr]

"Never apologise for showing feeling, in doing so you apologise for truth" Disraeli

[Sid]

I do agree, however the tories are still a joke.

[MadDog20/20]

Selfish bastard.

Is it fair that some people are more able than others? Do you think it is fair that people have to live in squalor because they are not valuable to the economy or because they didn't have the privilaged upbringing that you so obviously enjoyed?

Nobody needs to earn £100,000. Nobody deserves that much. Especially not a selfish prick like you.

[Sid]

If you get off your ass and do well for yourself why should you have to give it up for someone who decided to live from state benefits? I do believe that those who contribute to society deserve a piece of the pie, but those who don't should be shipped to another planet.

[Big X]

Quoting MadDog20/20 from 02:39, 4th May 2005
Selfish bastard.

Is it fair that some people are more able than others? Do you think it is fair that people have to live in squalor because they are not valuable to the economy or because they didn't have the privilaged upbringing that you so obviously enjoyed?

Nobody needs to earn £100,000. Nobody deserves that much. Especially not a selfish prick like you.

well to be honest; people are born even, if they want to do well at school then they can, its up to them. its hard for dyslexic people or people with another dis-advantages granted. if a student at a comprehensive WANTS to get into a good uni then they can, just do the work. if people want to get a good job and have a nice life then they can, if they really want it. obviously its easier if you've been lucky to have parents who have done well themselves and want their nippers to do even better; its called motivation. i want to do well, i intend to make money, i dont want to pay for people who sit at home when they could be making something of their lives. i pity them, its your life - live it

[hr]

"Never apologise for showing feeling, in doing so you apologise for truth" Disraeli

[MadDog20/20]

Fair enough, there are a lot of wasters in this country. But the way forward is to improve the distribution procedure so that the money goes to those who need it most.

How do you lot know you will be healthy and working in successful careers for the rest of your lives? What if you develop a mental illness and cannot hold down a regular job? There has to be a general social mechanism in place to ensure that people who have run out of luck can still enjoy a basic existence.

I suggest you three take a vacation to Vancouver sometime and see just how bad things can get under a conservative low-tax regime. I would not like to be a homeless person in Vancouver.

As human beings we have an obligation to help those worse off and LESS CAPABLE than ourselves. Do you think it is really fair for Chantelle in Dundee to live in a shithole just because she's not as bright as you?
The reality is that a lot of people at the bottom rung of the ladder are trying hard to get by, and need all the help they can get just to survive.

There is no way round about it, this means significant taxes for those of us that are cruising.

The only people who should be shipped off to another planet are the middle class whiners (like my parents) who piss and moan about taxes while they drive their Volvo to the golf club.

Having lived in both Canada and the states I am glad to know that I live in a country where if I should fall upon hard times there is a basic safety net in place. Supporting a few loafers is a small price to pay.

Socialism rules.


FUCK OFF TORY WANKERS!

(and don't even get me started on libertarians - they are already on another planet!)

[treehugger]

Curse the 'i worked for it i want to keep it' lobby in st andrews. the dice are obviously loaded in your favour if you came from rich perents. i somtimes feel like proponents of this view really have no clue what its like growing up in a deprived area. that aside they are only proposing a higher rate of tax on earning over £100,000 which is more than enough for any person to live way above the comfort level. Clinging onto an extra 10p per pound on income above this is just plain greedy. Besides if you really belive that people should be rewarded for what they do in life shouldnt we level the playing field first?

[Big X]

MadDog,
your comment about people with mental illness/physical inablity to work should be supported is true. some people need to supported. but lots more people dont need to be supported who are. the idea that the more succesfull you are the more you pay %wise is wrong. maybe some people get to where they are because of the people they met at school/uni, or simply because of the school/uni went to; thats a little unfortunate. how on earth are people LESS CAPABLE as you so elequontly put it? if they dont have a physical/mental handicap then people can all achieve the same given the same circumstances. i'm sick to the back teeth of The Sun telling me every year about some chick who has 5 A grade A levels but didnt get into Oxbridge because they went to a comprehensive. i'll tell you a tale of three of my friends who got 5 A's and didnt get an offer; you never hear about that in the papers.

[hr]

"Never apologise for showing feeling, in doing so you apologise for truth" Disraeli

[MadDog20/20]

Right.

So far the government has failed to provide a system that prevents slackers from taking advantage, I agree with you on that.

However where we differ is that you would like to see the money returned to the taxpayer, so he/she can revel in their success, wheras I would like to see taxes remain high and have the money redistributed more effectively.

The comments about the less capable are a little deeper.

I maintain that it is not fair that I can look forward to a decent lifestyle because I am smart and worked hard at school, wheras a less gifted person and/or someone who was misguided in their formative years may have to struggle to get by.

There are a lot of things I despise about capitilism, but perhaps the worst is the way that I can expect my income to be based more or less on my market worth to the economy. Let's assume I take up a job in the city. Why do I deserve to live a life of luxury while nice little Chantelle, who is breaking her back working double shifts in Tesco just so she can afford to feed her weans with a sausage supper, is imprisoned in a council flat that she can't afford to heat?

NOT ALL POOR PEOPLE ARE SLACKERS.

Chantelle, despite being an illiterate nedette, is still a human being. Because she works hard, we owe it to her as a society to do our best to make sure she can have at least something to look forward to in her life.

In order to do this we need

a) Comprehensive free healthcare
b) State supported education so she has a chance at improving her life
c) Income support should she need it to pay the bills (since she is already working as hard as she can, I think this is fair)
d) DECENT council housing.

Guess what? THESE THINGS COST A LOT OF MONEY.

When it comes to voting you should vote what is good for EVERYONE, not just what is good for yourself.

That is why right-wing voters are selfish bastards and I hate them all.

[Marco Biagi]

Those who are most unwilling to pay to support the poor and unemployed generally don't seem to realise that the dole (aka job-seekers allowance) is just £55/week. Try living on that ad infinitum. I'm sure such people are just rolling in luxury.

Personally, I'd rather see unemployed people not starve than see you have your second holiday in the south of France, Big X.

[hr]

There are FOUR parties.
http://www.whoshouldyouvotefor.com/scotland.php

[elvis]

Quoting Big X from 02:59, 4th May 2005

Quoting MadDog20/20 from 02:39, 4th May 2005
Selfish bastard.

Is it fair that some people are more able than others? Do you think it is fair that people have to live in squalor because they are not valuable to the economy or because they didn't have the privilaged upbringing that you so obviously enjoyed?

Nobody needs to earn £100,000. Nobody deserves that much. Especially not a selfish prick like you.

well to be honest; people are born even, if they want to do well at school then they can, its up to them. its hard for dyslexic people or people with another dis-advantages granted. if a student at a comprehensive WANTS to get into a good uni then they can, just do the work. if people want to get a good job and have a nice life then they can, if they really want it. obviously its easier if you've been lucky to have parents who have done well themselves and want their nippers to do even better; its called motivation. i want to do well, i intend to make money, i dont want to pay for people who sit at home when they could be making something of their lives. i pity them, its your life - live it.

I'm afraid this view is hopelessly idealistic in a large number of cases. Frankly it's a churlish view that only middle-class/rich people can afford to take. If you think Britain is the land of opportunity and meritocratic, you're severely mistaken. Motivation isn't something people just have suddenly.

If you're from a poor family living in an area with high crime rates, poor housing and ill health, it's comforting to think that these bad things will spur people on to better things. On the contrary, these are things that clearly inhibit people's motivation. Those conditions make it extremely difficult to raise and children without unwanted influences. In fact, in the worst areas, seeing middle-class people living comfortably is probably all the more depressing since it seems to be another life completely, and all the more unfair.

The sad fact is that Britain's social mobility has actually been DECLINING for some while now - we recently finished joint bottom with the USA in a table of 8 European and North American countries. So much for Blair's Meritocracy.

I for one don't think the problem can be solved with some abstract notion of 'hard work' coupled with a self-assured vision of the infinite opportunities provided by comprehensive education.

Nor do I think it will be solved by emphasising the rich-poor divide by quashing moves to redistribute wealth on a relatively minor scale.

[Pender Native]

[

well to be honest; people are born even, if they want to do well at school then they can, its up to them. its hard for dyslexic people or people with another dis-advantages granted. if a student at a comprehensive WANTS to get into a good uni then they can, just do the work. if people want to get a good job and have a nice life then they can, if they really want it. obviously its easier if you've been lucky to have parents who have done well themselves and want their nippers to do even better; its called motivation. i want to do well, i intend to make money, i dont want to pay for people who sit at home when they could be making something of their lives. i pity them, its your life - live it

It's also a very Victorian, and lets face it, convenient position for people such as yourself to take 'I did it and therefore so can anyone else, so if they're not as well off as me then they're just not trying hard enough. The poor have only themsleves to blame'. Good grief! Besides reading like my Standard Grade history book on the industrial revolution, it completely ignores the effects of background, education and contacts on your present position. Inequality isn't going to go away just by you saying so!

[hr]

'I like to listen to a man who likes to talk. Whoops! Sawdust and Treacle, put that in your herring and smoke it!' - quote from the Bursar in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. Hope that clears up any confusion as to my personal tastes!

[Eliot Wilson]

Quoting MadDog20/20 from 02:39, 4th May 2005
Nobody needs to earn £100,000. Nobody deserves that much.

I see. And you get to decide that, do you?

[hr]

Bill and Ted beat the Grim Reaper at Twister

Bill: "You played very well, Death, especially with your totally heavy Death robes."

Death: "Don't patronise me."

[DrAlex]

So back to the real issue, you're going to vote Tory based on something that might happen to you in the next 10 years, should it happen to you at all.

Makes perfect sense to me...

[hr]

RUSH KATO '05!

rush.kato@gmail.com

[Rilla]

[s]Quoting Pender Native from 08:02,
It's also a very Victorian, and lets face it, convenient position for people such as yourself to take 'I did it and therefore so can anyone else, so if they're not as well off as me then they're just not trying hard enough. The poor have only themsleves to blame'.

I agree with everything Maddog has said here - it's times like this I dont actually cringe at some of the things he writes on the sinner and am proud to be his friend.

Also, I agree entirely, Pender Native - anyone who has read Hard Times will recognise Josiah Bounderby - claiming to be a self-made man, and the attitude of "well I managed to get from absolutely nothing to what I am today" will know how unrealistic that is.

I still haven't decided exactly what I'm voting tomorrow, but it's a choice between Lib Dems, Greens or Socialists, depending on how militant I feel when I wake up tomorrow morning.

The sooner you have STV in this country the better.
(and yes, I know scotland has it for other stuff, etc.)

[hr]

"Certainty is not the same thing as Truth"

[legohead]

Quoting Eliot Wilson from 09:12, 4th May 2005

Quoting MadDog20/20 from 02:39, 4th May 2005
Nobody needs to earn £100,000. Nobody deserves that much.

I see. And you get to decide that, do you?

[hr]

is that the only point you could attack on this whole page? I think you picked it because the issues of state welfare are too convincing, so you have to pick something trivial like this.

good to see so many people showing a social conscience, I was beginning to think most of st andrews had the vile 'greed is good' mentality.

[hr]

This is for all those headless acrobats
faces crushed in the circus dust
all in the name of gravity
and the price of admission

[flossy]

Quoting Big X from 02:59, 4th May 2005
if a student at a comprehensive WANTS to get into a good uni then they can, just do the work. if people want to get a good job and have a nice life then they can, if they really want it.

Erm bollocks. I think you'll find it far more difficult to get qualifications in a comprehensive school.
We'll take my local comp as an example. The GCSE history teacher left after one term with a nervous breakdown after being attacked by a pupil. The school couldn't afford a replacement so if you were in that class, you had to buy your own text book and teach yourself.
Also what about science equipment, larger classes etc? All of these are a detriment to education. With reference to my own school, whether the classes were by ability or not, there was always the hardcore of troublemakers who'd beat the crap out of you for being a swot.
Sorry for the rant, but all things are not equal. If you want poor people to work themselves up the economic ladder, you have to give them a solid educational start. The Tories, sadly, won't do this.

[hr]

Make a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

[tordenskjold]

I agree with the thought behind what Big X is saying though I also think that the less well off in society should be looked after. I can tell you that I would NEVER want to fall on hard times in this country as the 'safety net' meant to protect you is more of a large hula hoop than a net. Still, I think people should be taxed fairly and not completely ridiculously like they do in some countries which reduces peoples' will to actually make something of themselves while the people who are hard up are told it isn't their fault and they they are ok and they are given money and no incentive to sort it out either.

[hr]

Kæmp for alt hvad du har kært,
Dø om så det gælder.
Da er livet ej så svært,
Døden ikke heller.

[tintin]

The Tories have a timetable for action - so you can put the dates in your diary when they hope to have achieved certain things and hold them to it - unlike 8 years of Labour's broken promises...66 tax rises and all that

[hr]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mat_salleh

[tordenskjold]

Well i have just read another reason not to vote Lib Dem. They want to lower the voting age to 16. Supposedly the NUS and others think that this will invigorate the youth vote? Bollocks it will. Those little shits should be under the rule of a nationwide curfew and should never be given the vote. "They know what they think about issues" er.. I think not. This makes me so angry. Do the parties seriously think that the apathy seen in the youth today will be changed if you lower the age at which you can vote? Also, yes I do think they can do all those other things you can do at 16 without being allowed to vote.

[hr]

Kæmp for alt hvad du har kært,
Dø om så det gælder.
Da er livet ej så svært,
Døden ikke heller.