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Re:

Postby DrAlex on Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:27 pm

Quoting LKToday from 04:50, 30th Oct 2005

And finally, the spelling mistakes. Get over it.


Did anyone else appreciate the irony? haha

To be honest, I'm a little surprised that there is so much to be said about this issue. Sure, I have my problems with The Saint, but none so large that I wouldn't forget about them were I named "Fitty of the Fortnight".

Moan about it all you like: You'll be much happier if you either accept it for what it is, or work to make it better.

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Re:

Postby David Bean on Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:25 pm

Quoting LKToday from 04:50, 30th Oct 2005As for the editorial about David, I didn;t read it myself, however, the idea of free speach (which The Saint has had to deal with a lot recently) says that anyone has the right to call into question the actions of snother, expressing a viewpoint. And, don't tell me you don't like a little debate. You didn't agree with the article? Write a letter saying that, or , better yet, actually write an article for The Saint saying that.


I absolutely agree with you that everyone has the right to criticise me, or anyone else; however I shall repeat what I said earlier, which is that nobody has the right to write an article (particularly one blending fact and opinion so artfully, which in my view is questionable in itself) attacking a member of the student body, even if they are a paid sabbatical, without giving them the opportunity to comment before publication, and including reference to their position in the original article. Fobbing people off with a supposed right-to-reply by letter to be published (or not) in a later issue is contrary to journalistic ethics.

Notice that I am making no personal attacks on anyone, but I defy anyone to argue that for a newspaper to publish an attack on a person without reference to their version of events, is not reprehensible.

[hr]

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Re:

Postby DrAlex on Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting David Bean from 17:25, 30th Oct 2005
Notice that I am making no personal attacks on anyone, but I defy anyone to argue that for a newspaper to publish an attack on a person without reference to their version of events, is not reprehensible.


...or legal in many cases.

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Re:

Postby Andrew Cusack on Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:01 pm

There are many criticisms to be made of the Saint, some valid, some not, but may I suggest to its plentiful detractors that perhaps the best option would be to quit moaning and either:

A) Launch a takeover of the Saint and remake it as they please (It is run democratically, I'm told, so that would not be hard).

or

B) Start their own newspaper or publication so that students have a greater choice to select from. The more, the merrier, I say.

When I came to St Andrews, I did not find the Saint particularly edifying. I couldn't be bothered to organise Option A so I went for Option B and have found it rather enjoyable.
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Re:

Postby CatherineS on Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:04 pm

Quoting Grandpa from 17:35, 29th Oct 2005

Also:
Quoting Jim from 17:55, 28th Oct 2005

Im not saying it had anything to do with it but youve got to remmber that the saints editor is the girlfriend of one the Union officers. Theres no possibility that he was pissed of with David is there?


Actually, Jim, this was the case. Mr Ben Nicholson made it abundantly clear to me that he thought he'd done far too much in comparison with the amount of work he thought Mr David Bean had been doing.

[hr]

"Mr" Grandpa, you seem to have no trouble with flinging other people's names about, how come you don't have the balls to use your own?

Anyway, your infersion is utter bollocks (no pun intended) - there's no way in hell Ben would try to get Jo to write an article based on a personal aggrevance, and equally no way in hell she would if he did! I've never met a more deeply ethical man than the ginger one, nor anybody less out to hurt anyone else (now he may have been a little peeved at David, I don't know, but he would set out to hurt his feelings) - unlike you, you little toerag.
CatherineS
 

Re:

Postby Midget on Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:35 pm

Quoting Andrew Cusack from 16:01, 1st Nov 2005
A) Launch a takeover of the Saint and remake it as they please (It is run democratically, I'm told, so that would not be hard).

or

B) Start their own newspaper or publication so that students have a greater choice to select from. The more, the merrier, I say.


I went for A although I never hated the Saint

Cusack is right, (yeah we all know that), I meant right in the true/false sense actually.

[hr]

IMAGE:img9.imgspot.com/u/04/241/18/160019.jpg Too far.
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Re:

Postby Oli on Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:54 am

The Saint has improved dramatically over the last year, in financial and journalistic terms.

I'm sorry to see that there are so many basic mistakes though, such as spelling and grammatical errors (and in the last two issues getting people's names completely wrong).

I'm not one of these people who sits at a computer taking anonymous pot shots and slagging people off without making a positive effort - I approached the Saint and offered my time/skills as a proof reader. However, even though the team were aware of errors (some they knew about; some I had to point out), they decided to go to press anyway.

The main reason for going to press with the errors included (this time) was probably the impending print deadline.

The design and layout of the newspaper is great - they'd be hard pushed to improve on that. The Saint-doku is an interesting new addition (and I'm now hooked), and Halo has become more generalised than just a "yah's photo album" (but if you want to see YOUR friends in there - send the Saint your pictures!).


I would like to see three main improvements:
- A better standard of writing (longer, well constructed sentences that also make sense)
- Spell checkers (and proof readers - again I offer my help) being used
- A little more research going into articles (eg check the name of the former Principal...)






[s]And finally, my take on the criticism of David Bean:
I was asked my opinion on the article (about all the sabbs) before it went to press, and I told The Saint what I thought of it - that the article featured too negatively on certain sabbs, and seemed somewhat biased. However, a good deal of what was in the article was true - there were people working in David's Office more than he was.
Perhaps this was because his role is to organise student activities and deal with development (pretty tricky if there are no students to work with), and although he could have put more time into helping Ben Nicholson put The Book together, David's skills lie more with personal interaction and communication than laying out a book in a computer programme he had no experience of. It could be argued however, that he should have been in the union more, helping in other areas where his skills could be put to better use.
I think the article should have been less subjective[/s]
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Re:

Postby Guest on Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:26 pm

Quoting DrAlex from 17:28, 30th Oct 2005
Quoting David Bean from 17:25, 30th Oct 2005
Notice that I am making no personal attacks on anyone, but I defy anyone to argue that for a newspaper to publish an attack on a person without reference to their version of events, is not reprehensible.


...or legal in many cases.


There are no legal obligations on any newspaper to ask a person about their version of events. The only time it becomes a good idea is when a libel action is launched and they can turn round and say 'well we asked them and they didn't deny it...'
Guest
 

Re:

Postby Grandpa on Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting Midget from 13:44, 30th Oct 2005

Please grow up people, its taken me a while I admit, but I have.



What a load of f*cking rubbish, midget -

And I quote from sinner thread http://www.thesinner.net/mb/Main/union/18378 :-

Quoting harmless loony at 19:58, 29th Oct

So what are you planning to do for the ethnic minorities you now represent?


loony was talking to preston, asking that question.

And, the next post on the same thread (next page) reads thus:

Quoting by Midget at 20:57, 29th Oct

Send 'em home?


So, although he may be quite the comedian, he has certainly not grow 'up'.

Oh, and he's still a midget, so he hasn't grown up in either sense of the word.

OI MIDGET....NO!

[hr]

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A Very Long Post

Postby joker on Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:18 am

Before this thread dies completely and is lost forever in the unfathomable realm of cyberspace I think I better have a say.

When the thread appeared last week I was fairly shocked since:
1. The paper's much better now than it was at the end of last year, and no one complained then.
2. I had heard a lot of good feedback personally.

So therefore, my thoughts, in no particular order:

My article on drug use in town was a brave and bold step for me personally and for the paper. I chose to cast my scope wide and the result was not perfect by any means but was well researched and well written. If you don't believe that drug taking goes on here I have the facts to prove you wrong, however I never said there was a massive epidemic or nowt like that.

There is some very poor spelling in this post, but surprisingly not all of the bad spelling in the paper is my fault! When we're close to deadline it doesn't seem to matter so much to any of us but I do take the criticism on board. Must try harder!

Ben knows that if he ever tried to tell me what to do he'd get a slap. I never listen to gingers anyway - especially not ones who hang round the Union all day.

I wont harp on about 'getting involved' and helping us make things better - you're perfectly entitled to criticise the paper even if you have no desire to write for it. The Saint needs readers and critics even more than it needs writers (but not more than it needs In Design and a new computer). However I would ask you to stop expecting us to be professional journalists. Most of my editorial team are third and fourth year students with essays and dissertations to worry them on top of the paper. Half the time we're running around like sleep deprived zombies trying to get an issue out, and making it up as we go along.

Don't expect perfection just enjoy the paper for what it is: an ambitious, entertaining, oft controversial, and fun read.

When we're real journos you'll be able to read our proffesional controbutions to print media. Until then give us a break - we are learning!

As far as setting up you're own paper... A 7 step plan of greatness follows for any of you with aspirations higher than the rightwing piece of nonsense that is The Mitre:
You will need.
1. £1100 per fornight for printing.
2. Two or more computers with high quality monitors and all the page makery, photoshoppy greatness that i still cannot wholly understand.
3. A team of around 35 dedicated staff members and a wider pool of writers to put the paper together.
4. An editor, deputy, and production manager willing to put in a combined total of around 80 hours per week.
5.a business team that is savvy to local and national advertising - no ads? no paper!
6. A unique ethos for your student rag. Can't go copying The Saint, and if you want to rival us it better be darn special.
7. Journalistic and legal knowledge; contacts in the national press; understanding tutors, and parents, and flatmates.
8. Someone who makes good flap jack and will sub you money for pints of tea.

As a very wise man recently told me, it's a lonely life being a journalist, and I've definately experienced that in the last year. It's been bloody good fun though, and I hope you enjoy (at least a part of) our last two issues. Here's to student journalism... andgin!



[hr]

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[s]fly like a mouse, run like a cushion, be the small bookcase, dare to believe.[/s]
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Re:

Postby BenEsq on Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting joker from 01:18, 4th Nov 2005

Ben knows that if he ever tried to tell me what to do he'd get a slap. I never listen to gingers anyway - especially not ones who hang round the Union all day.

[/s]


Finally, genuine evidence of the abuse of gingers - see you in court Kerr!

Oh, and thank you Miss Catherine.

Also, policy and integrity and relevant experience sooooo trumps celebrity every time (unless perhaps it's Ian McKellen...I'll think about that). Relating to The Saint, one of the main arguments of the Ramsay campaign was that his 'celebrity' qualified him for the role of Rector. Pepper stressed policy. They reported this - no stance.

[hr]

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Re:

Postby Al on Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:44 am

It could be argued that not caring about spelling and grammar is indicative of a certain casualness among staff of The Saint. After all, if you don't take the time to get the simple things right...

That said, I haven't read it in ages so I can't really comment on the content.
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Re:

Postby adam freeman on Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:17 pm

[/s][/quote]

Also, policy and integrity and relevant experience sooooo trumps celebrity every time (unless perhaps it's Ian McKellen...I'll think about that). Relating to The Saint, one of the main arguments of the Ramsay campaign was that his 'celebrity' qualified him for the role of Rector. Pepper stressed policy. They reported this - no stance.

[/quote]

What about 'celebrity and integrity and relevant experience'? Eh?! What about the smile factor? To be sure, policy trumps celebrity on most occasions. After all, salad is good for you. But we needn't deny ourselves that small piece of trifle now and again -- once every three years, give or take. Too much to ask? (And there's no way in hell that headline wasn't more than a 'trifle' prescriptive!)
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Re:

Postby adam freeman on Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting adam freeman from 13:17, 4th Nov 2005
[/s]


Also, policy and integrity and relevant experience sooooo trumps celebrity every time (unless perhaps it's Ian McKellen...I'll think about that). Relating to The Saint, one of the main arguments of the Ramsay campaign was that his 'celebrity' qualified him for the role of Rector. Pepper stressed policy. They reported this - no stance.

[/quote]

What about 'celebrity and integrity and relevant experience'? Eh?! What about the smile factor? To be sure, policy trumps celebrity on most occasions. After all, salad is good for you. But we needn't deny ourselves that small piece of trifle now and again -- once every three years, give or take. Too much to ask? (And there's no way in hell that headline wasn't more than a 'trifle' prescriptive!)[/quote]


Apparently I have no idea how to work the 'quote/unquote' mojo. I'll get over it.
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Re:

Postby adam freeman on Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:22 pm

That was my attempt to make the quote/unquote thing work. It didn't. I don't think I'm really cut out for this sort of thing.
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Re:

Postby Midget on Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting Grandpa from 19:56, 2nd Nov 2005
Quoting Midget from 13:44, 30th Oct 2005

Please grow up people, its taken me a while I admit, but I have.



What a load of f*cking rubbish, midget -

...etc...

Oh, and he's still a midget, so he hasn't grown up in either sense of the word.

OI MIDGET....NO!

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]


This was a bit of a personal attack.

But thinking about it you are probably right, still better a child than a grandad, I never ever intend to be a grandad. Hurry up and die you old fogey!

[hr]

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Re:

Postby BenEsq on Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:50 pm

Quoting adam freeman from 13:17, 4th Nov 2005
[/s]
What about 'celebrity and integrity and relevant experience'? Eh?! What about the smile factor? To be sure, policy trumps celebrity on most occasions. After all, salad is good for you. But we needn't deny ourselves that small piece of trifle now and again -- once every three years, give or take. Too much to ask? (And there's no way in hell that headline wasn't more than a 'trifle' prescriptive!)[/quote]

I take trifle as a bonus, and certainly it helps if candidates for positions are at least interesting. Trifle sans at least committment leads to a weak constitution indeed. Committment and integrity and relevant experience is something Ramsay never showed.

[hr]

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Re:

Postby Bonnie on Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:23 pm

(Ben, it's over. Stop campaigning.)

[hr]

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Re:

Postby stu on Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:02 am

a lot of very fair points there joker. it does seem you work bloody hard on the paper, kudos for that. I started this thread, however, because I was more than a little taken aback by the words about David Bean in the quoted editorial. I mean, I understand it must be very difficult to find subjects for those every fortnight, but come on...
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Re:

Postby Chap with hat based comments on Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:03 am

I don't really know David Bean, but he wears a hat.


I ran this comment past David before "going to press" as it were. He told me it was factually sound.

Now THATS journalism!
Chap with hat based comments
 

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