War With Iraq

[Prophet Tenebrae]

My solution is simple, let America go off and have the war it's so determined to have - and I challenge anyone to prove that Tony Blair is acting in anything other than an American-appeasing manner. If anything I've become *more* rather than less convinced that he's running for vice-president with Bush in his 2nd term (and I'm sure we can trust America to elect him again - once shame on you, twice shame on me comes to mind...)

And while I not have run a country before - give me a try I think I'd have to actively try to put Britain in a worse state than New Labour has. With the "iron chancellor" turning to putty, can things be poised to descend further toward 3rd world status?

I guess I should move to Fiji or the Caribean and setup my cult sooner, rather than later.

[jeff]

Did everyone hear about the No 10 Dossier on Iraq? It was copied verbatum from a PhD thesus somebody in america wrote, and also from two other papers. Best part? The PhD thesus was based on info from before the kuwait invaision, so the info it was based on was over 10 years old!!! And our dear darling democratic government tried to pass it off as the most current information available to them from our inteligence agencies, with Colin Powell actually praising it at the UN as part of the case for war. I could't stop laughing for half an hour.

All together now...
" cos we are living in a propaganda state,
and I am a propaganda girl..."

[:p]

People might complain about Blair but has he really done any worse than his predecessors? And is there anyone better to replace him within any party in the goverment?

Ans as for the american connection, you keep your friends close, your enemies closer and the big fuck off rich country closest of all.

[kensson]

My solution? Well, it's pretty much what 'Old Europe' is suggesting: keep up pressure on Iraq (which could involve a build-up of troops) and ensure it disarms. It seems ridiculous to me that a war should be prosecuted while progress is being made.

[Prophet Tenebrae]

This whole debacle shows 1. why the general public has an overwhelming apathy toward politics and a contempt/disgust for the majority of politicians 2. why those who want to be in politics are those who should be stopped from going into it.

And yes, that whole PhD plagarism was extremely funny - what was even funnier was the fact that the government seemed to think that even though the material was 12 years old it was still relevant, even though the student who did it acknowledged that it was that old and made statements accordingly.

And now if one wants to be cynical, we can see that the government is really playing up the whole terrorist threat angle to try and whipup the easily fooled public into a frenzy of panic to gain support for the war on Iraq. Sadly, I fear that it just might work.

[Guest]

The US and the Uk will get Europe on their side and go and kick the crap out of Iraq. Is there anything you can do about this? In a word...no.

Saddam will be disarmed, everyone will get bored and move on to the next country.

This time next year it'll be...

"we shouldn't starve the north Koreans"
"oh yes we should"

....blah blah blah. It's not like I don't care but I do know that it's out of my control. And as it is blindingly obvious that there will be a war I'm more worried that our armed forces are sufficiently equipped to deal with the situation.

[NicC]

[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 11:59, 12th Feb 2003:
And now if one wants to be cynical, we can see that the government is really playing up the whole terrorist threat angle to try and whipup the easily fooled public into a frenzy of panic to gain support for the war on Iraq. Sadly, I fear that it just might work.


Definitely. Look at the death-on-duty of the police officer (his name escapes me) in Manchester a month or so back. Massive, hysterical media coverage on the night. Tony Blair's personal messages of condolence ("I knew him well..."). Gloriously un-tasteful follow-ups on the family's grief, from reprinting notes that his children left at the graveside to charting the mourning process of his widow. And at every turn, we're reminded that he was investigating those damn dirty asylum seeking terrorists.

It was terribly sad, granted. The governmental and media reaction was also enormously disproportionate.

Because don't forget, any draconian legislation will be for our own good! Well, that's okay then. Phew.


Nic

[hr]
"'Our Mrs Peel in Ladies Underwear'. I rattled up the stairs three at a time..."
--Steed, The Avengers

Soldier in the War on the Brain since October 2002

[Yeats]

Just remember all these issues will raised tomorrow at the debate (Lower Parliament Hall, 8pm). I know this sounds like a plug, but what the hey, it is.

[Oddball]

Perhaps it would be far easier if we were to just attack Saudi Arabia. They have more oil that Iraq, and have more links to Terrorism. Best of of all it would be striking a blow for democracy by removing a despotic regime.

[RichZ]

The whole world has it all wrong! If I ruled the world it would be SUCH a better place! Bwwwaaahhhhhh!

And just another point I'd like to make - this is the 250th post on this thread! Yeah!!! (Unless some git bet me to it!)

Oh, by the way - what is the record number of posts on one thread? Anyone know? James can you tell us?

[Al]

I think the weapons inspectors have shown us the way! Instead of a war, couldn't the US and Iraq solve their differences with a huge game of hide and seek?

[hr]"Oh sing sing sing
For the dying of the day
Sing for the flames that will rip through here
And the smoke that will carry us away"

[rubbermuffin]

Blagged my way into the debate despite about (or should I say at least) 100 people being shut out.

Around 50 people voted for the motion, "This House would attack Iraq", and around 200 against.

I have never been to a debate before, but it was fascinating, particularly because of the seriousness of the subject. Really enjoyed myself, and nearly said something when they opened the debate up to the floor.

Seeing as I didn't get to say at the time, I would like to compare George Bush with Jesus Christ. As an infant, Jesus said 'I must be about my father's business'. I think we should all consider this with respect to George Bush jnrs administration.

Also, a lot of those on the proposition talked about the 'specific threat' to Britain posed by Iraq having weapons of mass destruction. The only person who I feel threatens the safety of my life is George Bush. He's mad, he has weapons, and he has signed the death warrants of many of his countrymen as governor of Texas (where capital punishment still goes on). I feel threatened by George Bush.

The govt. try and get us to support the war by highlighting and making important stories about terrorism. But the fact that some guy from Venezuela has a grenade in an airport, does not make me want to support a war with an entirely different country i.e. Iraq.

[Prophet Tenebrae]

What gets me is the fact that pro-war types are always saying

"But Blair and Bush know something that we don't."

Yeah, well if they did - they would probably tell us because Tony is taking such a beating in the polls and I imagine that it would probably be preferable for the US to share the information with France instead of shake fists and threaten trade sanctions.

It's a never-ending campaign to make people think that war is inevitable - really it's not, unless we let America have its way.

[Bob]

The only people to have actually stated that war is inevitable is the anti-war campaign. American and British Politicians have not said that war is inevitable. If the anti-war campaigners actually wanted to be constructive they could encourage Saddam to disarm or go into exile, which would achieve the not only the goal of a peaceful resolution but also a chance at democracy in Iraq.

[Prophet Tenebrae]

The US and UK are trying to make it look like it isn't going to happen but their actions betray them as seeing it as inevitable.

[Al]

The following is from the Terrorism Act 2000. Terrorism is defined by the Act as :

• The use or threat of action where:
the action involves serious violence against a person;
involves serious damage to property;
endangers a person's life ,other than that of the person committing the action; creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the
public or is designed to seriously interfere with or seriously disrupt an electronic system; and

• the use or threat of this action is designed to influence the government or to intimidate the public or a sectionof the public, and

• the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause.

The use or threat of action as above which is not intended to influence the government or to intimidate the public or a section of the public will still be terrorism if it involves the use of firearms or explosives.

Action includes action outside the UK.
Person or property means wherever situated.
Public includes the public of any country other than the UK and
Government means the government of the UK or part of the UK or anywhere else."

So threatening to drop a shitload of bombs on the Iraqi people (plus all their other "ideas") would appear to make terrorists of all members of both the Bush and Blair administrations. Can we count on a swift arrest and prosecution of this evil gang? It shouldn't be too difficult for the police to track them down......

[hr]"Oh sing sing sing
For the dying of the day
Sing for the flames that will rip through here
And the smoke that will carry us away"

[stan]

okay here's my two pence. i know i'm gonna get firwalled for this but what the dickens...

ive decided im anti-war for two reasons and they both involve my 18 yr old cousin.

1) he serves on the hms york which is a wee frigate meant to protect the hms ark royal, i belive this is britains main ship out there at the mo ie prime target.

2) until now he's been allowed shore leave on a regular basis and the knid chappie has been sending me back a regular supply of cheap cigs. the other week i got 400 marlboro lights for eight quid!!! but now hes in the gulf this stops

call me self interested i don't care. cos of this war/conflict/dabacle ive lost my supply of cheap fags and stand to loose a cousin

[Homer]

As I can't be arsed to read through this entire thread I was just interested to know what people opinions are of Saddam Hussein.

Is he a terrible leader that should be gotten rid of through any means necessary or should we just leave well enough alone thanks too countless balls ups in the past by meddling Westerners in that region?

[DAshby]

I’m all for these war protests. Having a voice is a great thing. I just hope people are being true to themselves when they use it. I read today in a newspaper about a group of high school kids protesting near where I live. I’m not saying high school kids can’t think for themselves, but you know how it is, high school is about being cool. You know the type, I don’t wear name brands because I’m a unique individual, so I try to look just like Marilyn Manson…. Sure. It’s just the way it is, if you were really unique, you’d be an outcast, a geek or retard or whatever. Think about it. We’re all following somebody.

So when I see a bunch of high school kids with picket signs, I have to wonder if they are utilizing their rights or if they are just anti-establishment. Are they so much against a war or are they just anti-establishment anything? Because when you think about protestors you think about KEN State or the 60’s movement, but when you think about supporting our troops, then you invision some old man on his front porch waving around his little American flag. Am I right?

To put this all into prospective, to know if you are professing your own thoughts or just marching around with a sign because what you really want is to take over the world yourself …. try this: If during the weeks or months following 9/11 you were one of those forwarding those clever little anecdotes, those silly little songs and poems about Ben Laden and his camel, via e-mail, and thinking “we’re gonna kick their towel head butts” and now you’re ready to grab up a sign because of something somebody said on MTV or that you heard that (hypothetically of course) Madonna, Ozzy Osbourne, Marilyn Manson, Tom Morello, or fucking Willie Nelson is against war…then maybe you’re just a trend follower ready to jump on any ol’ band wagon that your high school principal would oppose. Maybe you don’t really give a fuck about people at all, you just think you do.

Yeah, I’m thinking about grabbing one of those signs myself, but first I’m gonna be informed, because your voice is a very powerful thing and protesting is like starting your own war against the soldiers who die to defend the very voice you use. Cause let me tell you, I know some of those soldiers and they really are “cool” people and I don’t want to be one of those who slap them down for protecting me. Worse, I don’t want to forget about them. Leave them there in some sandpit while I sit around ready to bitch about the next issue that comes around. The media must be having a hell of a time, people actually watch and listen again. You want to start a protest against the media, hey, I’m there! It does piss me off that trying to be informed means trying to filter between what’s real and what they think you want to hear. It shouldn’t be that hard.

Anyway, be cool, if you don’t really know what your protesting for or against, just sit back and listen for awhile until you can make up your own mind about it. Because, there is this factor, “What if we’re wrong?” What if we all die of smallpox because we stopped this war thinking the Bush administration was just out to control the Nation’s oil supply? Now I don’t think we’re completely wrong about that, but what if there really are other factors to consider as well? Just don’t protest because you say you are a pacifist, because there are people who are aggressive and we need our own aggressive people to defend the pacifists. None of us want to be “baby killers”.
If you’re a leader and are following your heart, then I’m glad your out there shouting “No Nukes” and if you’re a follower, then I pray you are following the right people, but if you are looking for a way to be with the “in-crowd” then may I suggest Abercrombie and Fitch.

I guess my best advice to these “fickle” protestors is this old quote my daddy used to say, “Either lead, follow, or get the “fuck” out of the way!”
My thanks goes out to the owners of this website for letting me speak my viewpoint.

–D. Ashby , IL

[:p]

On the other hand Blair doesn't test his weapons on his own people or any other little experiments.

Ooh if you go to war with someone your a terrorist, because that hasn't been said before. Was this the general concensus when we bombed nazi Germany?

And as for Iraq not being a threat to our country, was Germany really considered a threat when it knocked out the little country of Poland?

I'm not pro-war but you're scaping the barrel using the arguement that Tony Blair's a terrorist.