War With Iraq

[Pussycat]

If the above post made any sense then maybe they would.

[Oddball]

[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 13:54, 23rd Apr 2003:
700 posts - and really this thread has gotten nowhere. Would the pro-war people kindly explain how they were "right"? Because as Afghanistan bombing a country back to the stone age does not magically ensure that it's going to be a USA lovin' democracy.


Afganistan was hardly bombed back into the stone age, it was already very backwards and devastated from years of civil war. If anything the situation is a little better from the increased stability and improvements in infrastructure that the stabilisation force will have created in order to be able to operate. Afghanistan may not be a first world country, but it is undoubtedly better off in terms of freedoms and security than it was before the US involvement.

[Buzzboy]

[s]Unregisted User Give it up I'm never wrong wrote on 01:30, 23rd Apr 2003:
[s]Al wrote on 23:35, 22nd Apr 2003:[i]


This wasnt the real reason we don't actually need a permanent base in Iraq we could have one in Israel for syria and one in Afghanistan for Iran. But I would like to see your facts that a vast majority don't want the US there. Do you have numbers to support that? If the Iraqis really don't want us to have a base thats fine but then they can pay us back the money we will use to rebuild thier country.


Yeah, but surely they Iraqi people would want to be paid back for the fact that the coalition FUCKING INVADED AND BOMBED THE SHIT OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY!!!!!!
The US/UK have an obligation to rebuild Iraq as the aggressors in this case, building of airbases is irrelevant to that.
I think the coalition is being far too hasty with their plans. Any airbases in Iraq would surely have to be discussed with the Iraqi government, oops, there isn't one yet.

[Andy Bayley]

well maybe the title was a little strong but you people seem to hope Afghanistan will fall into anarchy it hasn't yet. But you all seem to want it to so you can see I told you so Republicans are wrong same with Iraq you people practically are creaming you pants at the possibility of a religious theocracy taking over. How about a little optimism if not optimism at least realilism

[Pilmour Boy]

OK, please, please use punctuation in your messages. At least then we'd be able read your posts before replying about how much we disagree with you.

[hr]One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. - Plato

[immunodiffusion]

[s]Unregisted User Andy Bayley wrote on 16:12, 23rd Apr 2003:
you people seem to hope Afghanistan will fall into anarchy it hasn't yet.

All but Kabul is back in the control of the Taliban again, anyway. The Kabul government has been totally ineffective, partly because they took over a war-torn country which had had all its infrastructure bombed to bits. Had a peaceful and slow change in government taken place, they would have been much more likely to have succeeded.

[Prophet Tenebrae]

America supported war lords who may have been anti-Taliban but were still by all accounts bastards. I'm no bleeding heart liberal but America should really learn that bombing and hoping for the best is no substitute for a plan.

Oops, looks like they screwed up Iraq.

[Andy Bayley]

[s]immunodiffusion wrote on 17:04, 23rd Apr 2003:
[s]Unregisted User Andy Bayley wrote on 16:12, 23rd Apr 2003:[i]
you people seem to hope Afghanistan will fall into anarchy it hasn't yet.

All but Kabul is back in the control of the Taliban again, anyway. The Kabul government has been totally ineffective, partly because they took over a war-torn country which had had all its infrastructure bombed to bits. Had a peaceful and slow change in government taken place, they would have been much more likely to have succeeded.
[/i]

Thats couldn't be farther from the truth. The rural parts of Afghanistan are in control of war lords not the taliban. The taliban are hiding in caves. Should we get rid of the warlords? yes. Should we fund the Afghan government more? yes. But did we do a wonderful thing getting rid of a brutal repressive government? most definately.

If we supported the taliban you people would bitch about it, if we get rid of the taliban you people would bitch about it theres no difference. The taliban governement was one of the most brutal in recent years mass graves of more than 10,000 bodies have been found in afghanistan . I thought leftists are supposed to be compasionate. Where is the compasion for those killed brutally by Saddam's regime and the Taliban

[Andy Bayley]

[s]Unregisted User Buzzboy wrote on 11:20, 23rd Apr 2003:
[s]Unregisted User Give it up I'm never wrong wrote on 01:30, 23rd Apr 2003:[i]
[s]Al wrote on 23:35, 22nd Apr 2003:[i]


This wasnt the real reason we don't actually need a permanent base in Iraq we could have one in Israel for syria and one in Afghanistan for Iran. But I would like to see your facts that a vast majority don't want the US there. Do you have numbers to support that? If the Iraqis really don't want us to have a base thats fine but then they can pay us back the money we will use to rebuild thier country.


Yeah, but surely they Iraqi people would want to be paid back for the fact that the coalition FUCKING INVADED AND BOMBED THE SHIT OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY!!!!!!
The US/UK have an obligation to rebuild Iraq as the aggressors in this case, building of airbases is irrelevant to that.
I think the coalition is being far too hasty with their plans. Any airbases in Iraq would surely have to be discussed with the Iraqi government, oops, there isn't one yet.
[/i]


you say "FUCKING INVADED AND BOMBED THE SHIT OUT OF THIER COUNTRY!!!!" IRaqis and americans say liberate thier country we don't actually need to get involved in overthrowing thier government we did them a favor and us at the same time.

As far as your second point I agree once the permanent IRaqi government is in place then we can deal with permanent bases.

I wouldn't get hung up on the bases it isn't a big deal we wouldn't go to war to achieve 10 square miles especially when we have so many other options but since we will be in Iraq possibly up to 10 years judging the ever so successful UN intervention in Kosovo. Hopefully this will take less time than that one but anyone who wants the UN to take charge of this should look at Kosovo.

[Guest]

Al,

Your views are so tainted its ridiculous. You state the vast majority of Iraqi people do not want any US presence. How do you know this? Do you live in Iraq? Do mingle amongst the Iraqi people and frequently discuss their displeasure with the US? You Liberals are so quick to forget about all the liberation celebrations in the streets. Children giving US/UK soldier’s flowers.. etc etc…. Can’t you for one second sit back and think about how the liberation from a brutal oppressive dictatorship may actually be a good thing? Why just criticize the US AND UK?

Furthermore, don’t you think the price of freedom the US provided the Iraqi people is worth far beyond the price of a couple bases in their country?

And what parts of the country lay in smoking ruins other than the parts Saddam’s regime set ablaze? If I remember correctly the US AND UK took extra precaution in keeping the Iraqi infrastructure in tact. Stop being one sided and come back to reality.

Immunodiffusion,
Although the Taliban has started and is trying to make their way back into Afghanistan, they hardly control any minor regions in the country not to mention the entire country.

Liberals really need to attain their information from more than one source. I also recommend you find sources that are not completely biases to your point of view. You will lose track of reality very quickly if you don’t and its becoming quite obvious that some of you already have.

[Al]

"Where do you get this garbage from?
Al,

"Your views are so tainted its ridiculous. You state the vast majority of Iraqi people do not want any US presence. How do you know this? Do you live in Iraq? Do mingle amongst the Iraqi people and frequently discuss their displeasure with the US? You Liberals are so quick to forget about all the liberation celebrations in the streets. Children giving US/UK soldier’s flowers.. etc etc…. Can’t you for one second sit back and think about how the liberation from a brutal oppressive dictatorship may actually be a good thing? Why just criticize the US AND UK?"

I never said that the Iraqi people, or at least some of them, were not glad to be rid of Saddam Hussein. However, that does not mean they are happy to be ruled by the Americans. This can be seen in the protests against the US - Iraqis chanting "No Saddam. No USA". Your point that, as I do not live in Iraq, I cannot know what is happening there is moronic. Do you live in Iraq? If you do not then you can't possibly know, beyond what is reported in the media, any better than I what the true situation is there."

"Furthermore, don’t you think the price of freedom the US provided the Iraqi people is worth far beyond the price of a couple bases in their country?"

No, I do not. But, there again, it isn't my decision to make. If the Iraqi people want the airbases then fair enough. But if they do not then they should not be forced to have them.

"And what parts of the country lay in smoking ruins other than the parts Saddam’s regime set ablaze?"

Well, there's people's lives.

"If I remember correctly the US AND UK took extra precaution in keeping the Iraqi infrastructure in tact."

Of course they did. That's why they destroyed the water and electricity supplies. That's why they let the hospitals be ransacked and looted. That's why they let the museums be pillaged. They were keeping the infrastructure intact.

"Stop being one sided and come back to reality."

The truth is one sided. And the reality is that the US have made a bad situation even worse. Marvellous.

[hr]"Stupidity is the devil. Look in the eye of a chicken and you'll know. It's the most horrifying, cannibalistic, and nightmarish creature in this world."

[Guest]

Al,

The problem is your perception of reality is one sided, not reality itself. Open your eyes a bit more than you have. You say you get your information from the media? What media is that? Have you ever taken a second and looked into details for yourself? You seem to just blurt out things you saw on your local newscast the previous night. If you do some research and tap multiple sources you may find yourself having a totally different perspective.

You state:
“However, that does not mean they are happy to be ruled by the Americans. This can be seen in the protests against the US - Iraqis chanting "No Saddam. No USA".

The COALITION led by the US has made it very clear from the start that they were not going to stay in Iraq longer than they had too. Which means that their intentions are not to rule Iraq in any shape or from. They have continuously reiterated this from day one, and up to now the US/UK have been very straight forward about their actions in and around Iraq.

I’m going to assume your referring to the protests in Karbala. Well let me educate you about them. First off they were held by around 3,000 people, which at first glance seems like a lot. But when you put it into perspective its really not. The city of Karbala has a population of over 1,000,000 people. If you divide 3,000 by 1,000,000 you will notice that it makes up far less than 1% of the population in Karbala. Lets go a step further, did you know that these protests were organized and financed by an anti-US Iranian fundamentalist group who entered into Iraq with over 50 million dollars? Did you also know that this group assassinated an Iatola, who was very popular amongst the Iraqi people in this area because he was pro US and had a good chance of being one of the major political voices there. This is probably the first time you’ve heard this right? I thought so.


AL stated:
“Of course they did. That's why they destroyed the water and electricity supplies. That's why they let the hospitals be ransacked and looted. That's why they let the museums be pillaged. They were keeping the infrastructure intact.”

What water or electricity supplies are you referring too???? Most cities have the same amount of fresh water and electricity that they had before the war started. In fact, some cities even have more at this point. If you bother to look into the situation you will find that the COALITION forces are taking a greater step into protecting museums, hospitals etc… and in some cases have helped re-establish a local police force.


And now we come to your most ridiculous comment to date:

AL states:
“The truth is one sided. And the reality is that the US has made a bad situation even worse. Marvelous.”

I reiterate, your perception of the truth is one sided. Look into the situation yourself; don’t just take one source of media’s view for your own. The only thing that you’ve managed to do in these posts is paint yourself as an ANTI-US not ANTI-WAR individual, which in many eyes does nothing but discredits you. Last I checked it was a COALITION made up of count 30+ countries INCLUDING the UK. Marvelous, just marvelous.

ONCE AGAIN I ASK!!!! DO YOU LIVE THERE????? How the hell do you know if the toppling of Saddam’s regime has made a bad situation worse???? Can you tell that to the hundred’s of thousands of people who have suffered, were raped, tortured and brutally killed directly under Saddam’s regime??? I know one thing for sure; there are thousands of documented atrocities that detail Saddam’s actions. There are thousands of websites out there that talk about how horrific Saddam tyrant rule was. It’s more than safe to say that the future of the Iraqi people looks brighter than it’s looked in a very long time.

[Half my brain is tied behind my back just to make it fair]

I never said that the Iraqi people, or at least some of them, were not glad to be rid of Saddam Hussein. However, that does not mean they are happy to be ruled by the Americans. This can be seen in the protests against the US - Iraqis chanting "No Saddam. No USA". Your point that, as I do not live in Iraq, I cannot know what is happening there is moronic. Do you live in Iraq? If you do not then you can't possibly know, beyond what is reported in the media, any better than I what the true situation is there."

None of live in Iraq so therefore do not have first hand knowledge, but you have to put into perspective what the media shows. The media is by it's nature a projection of bad things going on not the good no one watches the good for more than 20 minutes. The protest of which consisted of about 3000 people in a march of 2 million people was the highlight of the news. To say because 3000 Iraqis protested americans that the whole country hates us is stupid. Don't be fooled by what the media does

No, I do not. But, there again, it isn't my decision to make. If the Iraqi people want the airbases then fair enough. But if they do not then they should not be forced to have them.

agreeable there Im sure once a government is in place we will offer them an aid package to put a base there, and theyll accept

Well, there's people's lives.

you mean the million and a half muslims saddam killed are those the lives? or were you talking about the 1000 or so that were unfortionate casualties of war?

Of course they did. That's why they destroyed the water and electricity supplies. That's why they let the hospitals be ransacked and looted. That's why they let the museums be pillaged. They were keeping the infrastructure intact.

Baghdad's power plant they still believe was not hit by us and was caused by technical difficulties. As far as the museums that was just a dumb statement very to dumb to be honest. How many lives would you sacrifice to protect a peace of art.
Either your a mindless product of antiamerican media(bbc) or you your self truly hate America.

The truth is one sided. And the reality is that the US have made a bad situation even worse. Marvellous.
Oh yes it is so much worse now I bet the Iraqis really miss the torture chambers and the mass graves if only they could go back to that simpler time.

[Al]

Your response is quite typical of the bullish hysteria that periodically sweeps the US. I am not anti-American. I dislike certain aspects of its current foreign "policy" but that is not the same thing as hating the country or its people. And yes the coalition is guarding the hospitals etc. now but unfortunately it is a little late. It might have been an idea to guard the hospitals and other buildings before they were looted. And the who the hell mentioned a "peace[sic] of art"? I am talking about artefacts and relics that date back thousands of years. Items that date back to the time when Iraq was the "cradle of civilisation". Items that had not been fully understood and now never will be. However, I should have appreciated that a country that is still to become civilised should have no understanding of its importance.

[hr]"Stupidity is the devil. Look in the eye of a chicken and you'll know. It's the most horrifying, cannibalistic, and nightmarish creature in this world."

[Uncivilized Barbarian]

[s]Al wrote on 23:38, 24th Apr 2003:
Your response is quite typical of the bullish hysteria that periodically sweeps the US. I am not anti-American. I dislike certain aspects of its current foreign "policy" but that is not the same thing as hating the country or its people.
Thats an easy way out we ellect our leaders and stand behind them if your against our leaders you are against the stance of Americans. Your pesimestic approach to this shows that it is almost like your secretly wanting the coalition to fail because you know if it's a success it doesn't stop there.

And yes the coalition is guarding the hospitals etc. now but unfortunately it is a little late. It might have been an idea to guard the hospitals and other buildings [i]before they were looted. And the who the hell mentioned a "peace[sic] of art"? I am talking about artefacts and relics that date back thousands of years.Items that date back to the time when Iraq was the "cradle of civilisation". Items that had not been fully understood and now never will be.[/i]

they are guarding them now that things have died down. Anyway answer my question how many lives are these artifacts worth?

However, I should have appreciated that a country that is still to become civilised should have no understanding of its importance.

yes us americans are so much more uncivilized that the europeans. I don't want to get into a who country is better thing. But if your country is so much smarter than us dumb Americans they would have more money than us which you don't.

Comments like that are what shows your contempt for the greatness of the United States.

[Al]

"Thats an easy way out we ellect our leaders"

Except in the case of the present regime.

"and stand behind them if your against our leaders you are against the stance of Americans"

Only those Americans who support the war. Thankfully, it appears that there are at least some Americans who can think for themselves and not be blinded by false notions of patriotism.

"Your pesimestic approach to this shows that it is almost like your secretly wanting the coalition to fail because you know if it's a success it doesn't stop there."

What? The war to rid Iraq of Saddam Hussein doesn't stop at ridding Iraq of Saddam Hussein? Are they going to export him to another country so they can bomb that one as well? Oh wait - they can't find him can they?

"they are guarding them now that things have died down."

Have you ever heard the expression "shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted"?

"Anyway answer my question how many lives are these artifacts worth?"

American lives? How many can you spare?

"yes us americans are so much more uncivilized that the europeans."

I am glad that you recognise this fact.

"I don't want to get into a who country is better thing. But if your country is so much smarter than us dumb Americans they would have more money than us which you don't."

I fail to see how the acquisition of money is a necessary guide to intelligence. Besides Europeans realise that there are more important things in this life that the grubby obsession with materialism that so many Americans seem to fall into.

"Comments like that are what shows your contempt for the greatness of the United States."

I see nothing great about any of the recent actions of the United States. Quite the opposite in fact. There are many words that could be used to describe the US but great (except in terms of size) is not one of them.

[hr]"Stupidity is the devil. Look in the eye of a chicken and you'll know. It's the most horrifying, cannibalistic, and nightmarish creature in this world."

[Tom Plant]

Sadly, the plight of Iraqi citizens looks considerably worse now than it did under Saddam's rule. I really wish I could say the opposite. Unfortunately, this news comes from anti-Baathites living in Iraq right now.

Disease is now rife, the Iraqi currency is worthless and warlords are claiming control of the cities. The Shiite muslims are rising to oust their British and American 'liberators' in order to establish a Shiite Islamic theocracy, and if we generously give Iraq democracy, as we have promised, that's what they'll get - they're 60 percent of the population, you see, as I've mentioned before. Bear in mind that Saddam ruthlessly oppressed the Shiites to prevent Islamic supremacy. Will we do the same, or will we promote a democratic regime that is directly contrary to our interests in the Middle East?

Considering Britain and America's profound disrespect for democracy throughout the lead up to this conflict, I doubt it. By 'disrespect for democracy', I mean forcing Turkey's hand over troup deployment despite the massive majority of its members of parliament opposing it, disregarding the UN and threatening members who did not accord with it (regardless of their individual democratic mandates) and, in Britain's case, starting a war when its people were clearly against it at the time.

Surely you appreciate that France and Germany could not agree to the war because their people and their people's elected representatives did not want it? Isn't that what democracy is all about? Would it have been democratic for France to agree to a war its people did not want? Clearly, the new Anglo-American definition of 'democracy' is going along with what America wants. Anything else, is - wait for it - anti-American. Just like any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, right, even if it's a Jew who makes the criticism?

But, in case the Iraqis are worried we won't be carrying out our promises of liberation, they have the wonderful example of Afghanistan to look to. There, schools that accept female students are now being bombed, villages are under the control of Islamic clerics, and things are pretty much as bad as they were before we got there.

At least under Saddam the religious maniacs weren(t in control. What we have to deal with now is a religious civilian majority in Iraq armed to the teeth with the former Iraqi army's rifles, which they bought for less than 10 US dollars a piece. If you don't believe me, the read the newspapers for a change instead of just watching CNN. Or, just wait and see.

Whatever happens, one thing is for sure; there will be a hell of a lot more killing on both sides before this is over, and that may not be in our lifetimes.

(My last prediction; now that we don't know Saddam is dead, it will be utterly necessary to start hunting for him in other Middle Eastern countries, just like we did for Bin Laden. And that means war. Great, time to show off our new toys again.)

[Andy Bayley]

Except in the case of the present regime.

If you don't understand our ellectoral process don't bother talking about it, the ellectoral college is an important way to make sure voters in small states don't get ignored.

Only those Americans who support the war. Thankfully, it appears that there are at least [i]some Americans who can think for themselves and not be blinded by false notions of patriotism.[/i]

I often act aragont it is only for fun you are the form of true aragonce. Anyone who disagree with you was obviously brainwashed and can't think for themself.

What? The war to rid Iraq of Saddam Hussein doesn't stop at ridding Iraq of Saddam Hussein? Are they going to export him to another country so they can bomb that one as well? Oh wait - they can't find him can they?

Hes dead, so it doesn't matter I'm refferring to the doctrine of preemption, that has proven successful.

American lives? How many can you spare?

I fail to see what your point is.

I fail to see how the acquisition of money is a necessary guide to intelligence. Besides Europeans realise that there are more important things in this life that the grubby obsession with materialism that so many Americans seem to fall into.

If we are stupid we wouldn't be richer than your country it's that simple. You can have your art museums I'll take my 20 grand SUV that earned working in the greatest economy in the world.

I see nothing great about any of the recent actions of the United States. Quite the opposite in fact. There are many words that could be used to describe the US but great (except in terms of size) is not one of them.

Richest country, Most powerful country, Most moral country, Most benevolent country. You'll disagree on the last probably but keep in mind if we wanted the world it would be ours.

[Guest]

AL,

Your response is quite typical of the bullish hysteria that periodically sweeps Europe. That’s it AL, we should have sat back with our thumbs in our asses for another 11 years, let Saddam build all his toys, kill another hundred thousand of his people and allow him to continue to mock the UN by breaking another 13 resolutions. Then we could have all smoked from your crack pipe and pretend that the world is perfect place, wish Saddam away and all our worries be resolved. GREAT F’N PLAN!

If you’re not Anti-US then why do you keep making comments towards the US like they are the only ones currently in Iraq? You never mention the UK, Australia, Spain.. etc etc…. THEY ARE THERE TOO!!!

First you Liberals stated that the war would be horrific with hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties. The war was pretty much over within a month with around 1000 civilian casualties, which in a lot of cases were caused by Saddam’s regime.

Now you guys complain about all the turmoil, uprisings, no stable government etc etc… Just because all the pieces haven’t fallen into place doesn’t mean the Coalition will fail putting in a stable government… For shit sake it’s only been about a WEEK since the war ended!!!!! Get a grip on reality would you!!!

[Andy Bayley]

[s]Tom Plant wrote on 16:19, 25th Apr 2003:
Sadly, the plight of Iraqi citizens looks considerably worse now than it did under Saddam's rule. I really wish I could say the opposite. Unfortunately, this news comes from anti-Baathites living in Iraq right now.

Disease is now rife, the Iraqi currency is worthless and warlords are claiming control of the cities. The Shiite muslims are rising to oust their British and American 'liberators' in order to establish a Shiite Islamic theocracy, and if we generously give Iraq democracy, as we have promised, that's what they'll get - they're 60 percent of the population, you see, as I've mentioned before. Bear in mind that Saddam ruthlessly oppressed the Shiites to prevent Islamic supremacy. Will we do the same, or will we promote a democratic regime that is directly contrary to our interests in the Middle East? It's to early to say what will happen but your lack of tolerance shows that you totally believe the Shiites can not govern themselfs peacefully. Right now in Iran Millions of Shiites March against the government all the time, In Iraq 3000 shiites march against the US and everyone is worried of an Islamic theocracy. The trouble is being stired by Iran but trust me Iran's problem will be quelled.

Considering Britain and America's profound disrespect for democracy throughout the lead up to this conflict, I doubt it. By 'disrespect for democracy', I mean forcing Turkey's hand over troup deployment despite the massive majority of its members of parliament opposing it, disregarding the UN and threatening members who did not accord with it (regardless of their individual democratic mandates) and, in Britain's case, starting a war when its people were clearly against it at the time.

Turkey was offered a deal they passed it up that is democracy. No one forced turkey to do anything. Our governments are not supposed to be populists they are supposed to do whats right. If they do what is wrong we throw them out of office, thats how it works.

Surely you appreciate that France and Germany could not agree to the war because their people and their people's elected representatives did not want it? Isn't that what democracy is all about? Would it have been democratic for France to agree to a war its people did not want?
What germany did was democratic the leader there got ellected by being anti american in fact he ran on in it. In France they campaigned against this war and threatened to veto it. Which is there right to do mind you but if they campaign against the US they aren't an ally. Not to mention everyday we find more about Russian and French ties financially to Iraq.


Clearly, the new Anglo-American definition of 'democracy' is going along with what America wants. Anything else, is - wait for it - anti-American. Just like any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, right, even if it's a Jew who makes the criticism?

America wanted a democracy for Iraq France doesn't. So in a sense going against America is wanting Iraq to not be democratic. As far as being anti-semitic where I say people are anti semitic are the people who think Israel should not exist if you think that your anti semitic

But, in case the Iraqis are worried we won't be carrying out our promises of liberation, they have the wonderful example of Afghanistan to look to. There, schools that accept female students are now being bombed, villages are under the control of Islamic clerics, and things are pretty much as bad as they were before we got there.

Islamic fundamentalism is a tough problem that won't be solved in weeks or even years. But it is far better than it was before, it isn't even close to comparison

At least under Saddam the religious maniacs weren(t in control. What we have to deal with now is a religious civilian majority in Iraq armed to the teeth with the former Iraqi army's rifles, which they bought for less than 10 US dollars a piece. If you don't believe me, the read the newspapers for a change instead of just watching CNN. Or, just wait and see.

First of all you people keep bringing up CNN. CNN has no credibility in America if any of you read the times editorial by Eason Jordan than you understand why. CNN only makes up a very small percentage of the American news Audience don't confuse it with mainstream america. Once again Islamic fundamentalism won't go away in a day it will take time. But its a great thing in the process of happening.

Whatever happens, one thing is for sure; there will be a hell of a lot more killing on both sides before this is over, and that may not be in our lifetimes.

The bulk of the killing I believe is done but you could be right.

(My last prediction; now that we don't know Saddam is dead, it will be utterly necessary to start hunting for him in other Middle Eastern countries, just like we did for Bin Laden. And that means war. Great, time to show off our new toys again.)



America needs about two years to recoup. But by then I'd imagine Iran will have fallen. So yeah we could still be going into middle east peace. Democracy takes a long time to develop but who can say the world would not be better if Syria, Libya, Sudan, Iran, North Korea, and Cuba all had democratically ellected leaders.