SSS and the Union Scare-mongering

[munchingfoo]

Yeah Ben, I got what you were saying. If I were a sab i'd be very annoyed that such an e-mail was sent out and I would raise it at the meetings which I would be olbiged to attend.

Unfortunately I am not in a position to do so so would hope that a member of the SRC read this and was equally annoyed enough to do what i'd have liked to.

Just to clarify - I do not hold all of the views held by some of the people posting here. For example, I don't think the union should "stay out of our business" or anything like that. I think my views are best summed up by dave the explosive n3wt's post above.

a) That email was unecessarily heavy handed in tone and may have been inaccurate to the point of scaremongering
b) that it was vague about what and what did not constitute acceptable behaviour
c) that it was only sent to final-year students when many of those taking part will come from other years.

As a general point:

From the union I expect an e-mail basically outlining what is acceptable and what is not. The union is there to guide students in these matters, not punish them. It is a union of students, not another voice for the University.

Whilst I see it as perfectly acceptable for the University to fine students for misbehaving on University property I don't really see why it is deemed acceptable for the union to do the same (re: reposesing tickets)

Personally I do not intend to break the guidlines laid down by the University for behaviour after exams but I most certainly do not take kindly to being threatened in order to change any dissallowed behaviour I may have considered expressing.

What's more, if a threat MUST be made I'd really appreciate it to be one which was actually plausible and not utter tosh.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Some perspective please?]

Interesting that the Union is coming in for all this abuse but not SSS.

Is it ok for the University Staff to treat students like five year olds?

Is it because SSS claim to be "helping people" by spending lots of university money providing pens and mugs etc. Why are we not shouting about the university employing people to tell us how to live our lives when they still do not have enough lecturers in many subjects?

Maybe some cut backs in SSS bureaucrats would free the money up for academics?

This email shows that they don’t have enough real work to do.

[Adam Fellows]

Quoting Bizarre Atheist from 19:28, 11th May 2006
How many Sinners offended at the above letter would it take for an SRC rep to make a comment?

2? 10? 100?

Surely every student has a right to have their comments voiced by their elected representative. When you go to your MP he doesn't tell you to go home and find more people with the same opinion to validate it.

I don't know about the other officers, but if a single student complained to me about an educational issue, I would raise it and direct it to the correct people, but I would also prefer it if I received an email about it, rather than a complaint being buried in the middle of a Sinner thread. I may read the Sinner but I check it nowhere near as often or as thoroughly as my Webmail.

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

True dat, I don't expect you to scour the sinner constantly - but given Ben was posting in this thread I'd assume he was listening as much as I'd hope he'd be paying attention as much as if I was having a conversation with him.

[hr]

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[Midget]

What happened at the SRC meeting? I really would have gone (honest) but my dissertation is due tommorrow.

Does the SRC back the letter or think it was rather heavy handed?

[hr]

IMAGE:img9.imgspot.com/u/04/241/18/160019.jpg "Little!"
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[Grandpa]

Quoting Ben Reilly from 16:54, 11th May 2006
The point of representatives is to put forward a collective view

what a load of kaka.

There can be no one single view of a collective, unless this is some tyrannical dictatorship, as many views will differ.

Views are not of the yes or no kind, they are of differing 'intensities',ranging from no view to very strong views most well conceptualised with a sliding scale type apparatus 'aimed' in an infinite array of directions. [s]however, this is all airy fairy, so lets get down to it[/s]

If we take the position of putting forward the ''collective view'', we will never get anywhere, this is why Union politics has little importance to those outside it - because no-one representing a large group can be truly said to represent unanimously. It is a practical impossibility because no-one bothers to find out what other people think. Listen to Ben - he basically said it was the responsibility of the individual to make their views known, but how could s/he do this? The SRC doesn't reach out to students, it doesn't properly advertise itself and as a result no-one thinks it actually does anything (which is not true).

However, the most important thing to remember is that rather than putting forward a ''collective view'' that we should be looking for the option that is most acceptible to all.

The only way you'd ever begin to understand what everyone thinks is to make a referendum, and since everyone thinks this would take up too much time, (student) politics is forever to be disassociated from the general (student) public.

[hr]

We are gentlemen that neither in our hearts nor outward eyes envy the great nor shall the low despise.

[Grandpa]

Quoting munchingfoo from 21:24, 11th May 2006
If I were a sab i'd be very annoyed that such an e-mail was sent out and I would raise it at the meetings which I would be olbiged to attend.

yeah, but he leaves in not too long and never wanted to rock the boat anyhow.

[hr]

We are gentlemen that neither in our hearts nor outward eyes envy the great nor shall the low despise.

[DrAlex]

Quoting Grandpa from 23:29, 11th May 2006
However, the most important thing to remember is that rather than putting forward a ''collective view'' that we should be looking for the option that is most acceptible to all.

You mean like satisfying the views of the majority collective?

[hr]

"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
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[Grandpa]

Quoting DrAlex from 23:38, 11th May 2006
You mean like satisfying the views of the majority collective?

Absolutely.

But this is not the same thing as representing/putting forward a collective view.

Representing and satisfying are two separate entities.

A majority view is a majority view - but we don't ever bother to (actually and efficiently) find out what it is.

[hr]

We are gentlemen that neither in our hearts nor outward eyes envy the great nor shall the low despise.

[Grandpa]

I have edited the big blurb a bit (before answering DrAlex's Q)

[hr]

We are gentlemen that neither in our hearts nor outward eyes envy the great nor shall the low despise.

[someone]

Quoting Ben Reilly from 17:03, 11th May 2006 But at the same time, if we believe in a representative system of governance, then by the very definition, the collective view of the students should be the collective view of the SRC.

Resistance is futile, etc.

As a student representative myself, I find that personal opinions tend to dictate what SRC does, not any sense of a "collective greater good." The amount of serious utilitarian analysis that goes on in an SRC meeting is minimal. Any "collective" view that is expressed is based in the sensibilities of the individual members, who represent the beliefs of the people they hang around with.

In the case of most Unionistas, this represents a very small circle--- I could go into specifics but I don't want to get into trouble--- and accordingly, these people frequently engage in Irving Janis-style "Groupthink." As a consequence they believe, very truly, that they are acting on the behalf of the collective whole when in fact they are acting only for themselves. Outsiders and shit-stirrers are very unpopular as a result.

As for Ben, love him though we do, it should be noted that his statements are wholly inconsistent with his personal representational record. I need only point out Co-Op housing, which was resoundingly shot down by the SRC in 2004, which he put to referendum on the same ballot as his DoR re-election campaign, which he then chose not to follow up this year.

Accordingly he is in no position to speak about acting for the "collective greater good," with the exception of the media circus surrounding the recent AUT vote that was held here--- where four or five Union hacks each managed to get their names or photographs in the national presses, even though slightly less vocal protest (given that all but 11 members of the St Andrews AUT defected) would have been more effective in resolving the dispute.

[Ewan Husami]

The Union can impose penalties on its members if it deems their behaviour to be "unbecoming of a member of the Students' Association".

[Adam Fellows]

Quoting someone from 14:15, 12th May 2006
As a student representative myself, I find that personal opinions tend to dictate what SRC does, not any sense of a "collective greater good." The amount of serious utilitarian analysis that goes on in an SRC meeting is minimal.

You should have been there last night. Prime example of what you just said.

In the case of most Unionistas, this represents a very small circle--- I could go into specifics but I don't want to get into trouble---

Oh go on, you know you want to though I suppose the factionalism content of the SRC has already been done to death on here.

Accordingly he is in no position to speak about acting for the "collective greater good," with the exception of the media circus surrounding the recent AUT vote that was held here--- where four or five Union hacks each managed to get their names or photographs in the national presses, even though slightly less vocal protest (given that all but 11 members of the St Andrews AUT defected) would have been more effective in resolving the dispute.

I only spotted four of us - one there by accident, two of us asked for general bystander purposes and one whose job it is to be seen. As for the question of what would help to resolve the dispute, there are what we shall call differences of opinion.

Right back to IR. Ta for reminding me of groupthink by the way!

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

It swings both ways, I think. If you are elected, that implies that the people you represent agree with your outlook on the things that affect them.

...however most of our current reps got in unopposed...

Hmm, things to do for next year - improve communications.
1. Information about representation the the freshers pack and in freshers week.
2. Improve union website to allow students to rapidly locate and contact reps.
3. Demand that reps keep the people they represent constantly informed of their activities - a newsletter perhaps? The facility on the union website to post rep reports has been woefully underused this year, so at least starting to use this would be a step in the right direction.
From personal experience, I've found that writing a newsletter keeping the medics informed of my activities as BMA rep has brought a lot of people out of the woodwork who have opinions on how they are represented and are wanting to see them expressed.

[hr]

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[Adam Fellows]

Quoting Dave the Explosive Newt from 15:44, 12th May 2006
Hmm, things to do for next year - improve communications.
1. Information about representation the the freshers pack and in freshers week.

Well each of the officers are going to write sections for the new version of The Book, and will each have a table at the Societies Fayre to let people know what is going on (I know we aren't societies, but it is the most popular Fayre after all)

2. Improve union website to allow students to rapidly locate and contact reps.

Talk to Oli about that, but yes everyone should update their sections regularly

3. Demand that reps keep the people they represent constantly informed of their activities - a newsletter perhaps?

Do you want an Association wide newsletter, with information from each officer? Just that on the Education Subcommittee, we have just published a newsletter sent out to class reps on educational matters, hoping to release at least one a semester in future. I am sure we could also put in online in an easily accessible format as well for those who are interested.

[Laura]

Rather than each officer having a 'profile' of his or her own just floating around, this year's book will have a chapter devoted to the SRC that is very clear about who sits on it, what its campaigns are, what its committees are and when they meet, and as Adam says, a bit about the Officers who convene thos committees and their contact details. Having it all combined within a chapter with our corporate image present may help it stick in people's minds what we're there for and what we do.

The Socs Fayre always has an SRC stall, its just not usually marked out very well- this year it will carry a bit more of our corporate identity and hopefully have a good spot when I've talked to Lee. Its generally used for welfare stuff (condom distribution, attack alarms) but this year we will put info from the other SRC committees on there and it will be a good opportunity for people to come into contact withe the SRC.

Hopefully next year we can further communication from week one..

[hr]

"When I came back to Dublin, I was courtmartialled in my absence and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in my absence."

[Oli]

Quoting Dave the Explosive Newt from 15:44, 12th May 2006
2. Improve union website to allow students to rapidly locate and contact reps.

We're working on a completely different system for the website, the design and layout of which should make it a lot easier to find information, and will be so much easier for people to update. I'll also publish the names of student reps, and make sure that people know how to get in touch with them. If a particular area of the website is lacking, it will be obvious who is responsible.

3. Demand that reps keep the people they represent constantly informed of their activities - a newsletter perhaps? The facility on the union website to post rep reports has been woefully underused this year, so at least starting to use this would be a step in the right direction.
From personal experience, I've found that writing a newsletter keeping the medics informed of my activities as BMA rep has brought a lot of people out of the woodwork who have opinions on how they are represented and are wanting to see them expressed.

The Vine currently includes comments from the Sabbs (something we'd like to continue next year), but I wouldn't want to see it over run with union commentary.

There used to be a Union Newsletter called "StAB" (St Andrews Bulletin). Not a particularly appropriate name, but perhaps something similar could be restarted? Printed very simply and cheaply - posted F.O.C. through internal mail to those who subscribe (through the website?)

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

Corporate identity? Sweet, you guys should get headed notepaper.

I think things definitely begin right in Freshers week - people need to get into the loop right from the get go. It's certainly going to be tricky pitching the information at the right level so that they don't lose interest.

Newsletters? Hmm. A paper circulating every union officer's report delivered to everyone's door? Maybe overkill. Although sending an email to everyone would end up in it not being read...

[hr]

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[Ben Reilly]

My personal preference would be 'blogs (complete with RSS feeds) for all sabbaticals and officers. Let's see what Tom comes up with next year, I have lots of faith in his ability to identify and implement some good new ways of communicating.

I was trying to persuade a couple of people from the Principal's Office today that it's what they need...

I was discussing with somebody else the possibility of having pervasive RSS feeds on the Uni web site. It's a nightmare getting the information you need at the moment, and I think that being able to choose from a variety of RSS feeds depending on your personal preferences would be great.

[Al]

"There used to be a Union Newsletter called "StAB" (St Andrews Bulletin). Not a particularly appropriate name, but perhaps something similar could be restarted? Printed very simply and cheaply - posted F.O.C. through internal mail to those who subscribe (through the website?)"

I seem to remember that StAB was but a rejigging of Fortnightly. Fortnightly was used to provide information on what events were happening in the Union, and what the various wings of the Association were doing. There was even a "Meet Your Representative" bit that was used to identify people. It was sent out to all halls, departments and the Library.