Is it a fair cop?

[Gubbins]

Over coffee this afternoon, a statistic came out that the US has the highest prison population per capita of anywhere in the world at 686 per 100,000.

(For the interested, see this UK-compiled government "league table": http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf )

The UK, although the highest in Western Europe, is almost a factor of five smaller.

One would hope that this isn't down to simply a matter of crime rates being highest in the US (perhaps they're just the best at catching them?), so can anyone shed any light on why the US - along with the Cayman Islands and Belarus - is so much of an outlier in this table?

[hr]

...but then again, that is only my opinion.

[Lid]

Well, with the Cayman Islands, it's not really a statistically sound sample. However, I guess it's down to fraud.

For example, Pitcairn has about 47 people living there, of which 6 are in prison on rape charges. This gives a total prison population of some 12,765 per 100,000 population. By far the most lawless place on earth

[hr]

Mathematical Anti Telharsic Harfatum Septomin

[novium]

Just generalizing, of course, but I see two things that could contribute to this. One is that I think more jail time is handed down- and stood by- than in europe, for example. Or at least the UK. Here, I am always reading about people getting sentenced to far fewer years in jail than they would have been in the states, and then getting paroled out far sooner than they would at home.

And I only know the statistics for rape convictions, but perhaps a similar thing applies- the UK has a rape conviction rate of less than 5%. The US has a conviction rate of slightly less than half.

Of course, I can only compare the US to the Uk, because I've never lived anywhere else outside of the US, and I've never looked up the statistics for elsewhere.

Quoting Gubbins from 00:29, 16th May 2007
Over coffee this afternoon, a statistic came out that the US has the highest prison population per capita of anywhere in the world at 686 per 100,000.

(For the interested, see this UK-compiled government "league table": http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf )

The UK, although the highest in Western Europe, is almost a factor of five smaller.

One would hope that this isn't down to simply a matter of crime rates being highest in the US (perhaps they're just the best at catching them?), so can anyone shed any light on why the US - along with the Cayman Islands and Belarus - is so much of an outlier in this table?

[hr]

...but then again, that is only my opinion.

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[The Jaspar]

Russia comes close to the US with 638 per 100,000. I think there are a lot more imprisonable offences in the states. Also, due to the early 90s crime wave, they started throwing more people in prison for more and more things. It did quite a lot to help the crime problem (according to Stephen Levitt).

[inshaala]

Listen to Prison Song by System of a Down...

I would love to know how much of those in prison in the US are down to gun-related crime. And then the comparable statistics for the UK... i'm guessing therein lies the problem.

[hr]

Ich will dass ihr mich versteht

[novium]

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cnscj.htm

knock yourself out . Actually, that may not be what you are looking for. But it was what I was looking for, on a similar topic a while ago. It took me a long time to dig through all the information on that site to find it....at the very least, maybe it will help you find what you want to know.

Quoting inshaala from 01:38, 16th May 2007
Listen to Prison Song by System of a Down...

I would love to know how much of those in prison in the US are down to gun-related crime. And then the comparable statistics for the UK... i'm guessing therein lies the problem.

[hr]

Ich will dass ihr mich versteht

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[rob 'f*ck off' wine boy]

Quoting The Jaspar from 01:04, 16th May 2007
Russia comes close to the US with 638 per 100,000. I think there are a lot more imprisonable offences in the states. Also, due to the early 90s crime wave, they started throwing more people in prison for more and more things. It did quite a lot to help the crime problem (according to Stephen Levitt).

Indeed. And of course, Russia is jailing people for entirely legitimate reasons. Really

[A66]

It's got a big divide between rich and poor, as does Russia. In general that creates the problem of social exclusion, resentment, jealousy etc. Which leads to higher crime, which leads to more people in prison.

[novium]

I think that you will find that that is not the case.

Quoting A66 from 10:12, 16th May 2007
It's got a big divide between rich and poor, as does Russia. In general that creates the problem of social exclusion, resentment, jealousy etc. Which leads to higher crime, which leads to more people in prison.

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[oddly familiar]

Quoting novium from 11:37, 16th May 2007
I think that you will find that that is not the case.

Quoting A66 from 10:12, 16th May 2007
It's got a big divide between rich and poor, as does Russia. In general that creates the problem of social exclusion, resentment, jealousy etc. Which leads to higher crime, which leads to more people in prison.

No? Ummm, care to elaborate?

[hr]

saru mo ki kara ochiru

[novium]

The comparison between the US and Russia is false. In addition to that...there's a reason (Well, many) that people in the states are so resistant to the sort of social programs so popular in Europe... they're not so hot for for redistribution of wealth, because they want to be wealthy themselves.

In any case, I get tired of europeans acting like the US is some big violent ghetto. Personally, I feel safer in the states. In the UK, my impression is that I'm not allowed to protect myself (remember that thread about rape, and the absurdities about how it was illegal to carry a pencil with the intention of using it for self defense. A PENCIL.), and that if I did get raped, there'd be next to no chance of the rapist getting convicted. And if the rapist was convicted, he'd be out of jail so fast it'd make your head spin.

Additionally, I also get the impression that it is easier to do well in the states. Certainly the cost of living isn't as high (despite comparable minimum wages)...neither are the taxes as high.

I am saying these are impressions I get. And they are not intended as ways of say "the US is so great" or anything like that. I just mean, well, remove the mote for your own eye before trying to remove the beam in someone else's eye, etc. etc.

Quoting oddly familiar from 12:22, 16th May 2007

Quoting novium from 11:37, 16th May 2007
I think that you will find that that is not the case.

Quoting A66 from 10:12, 16th May 2007
It's got a big divide between rich and poor, as does Russia. In general that creates the problem of social exclusion, resentment, jealousy etc. Which leads to higher crime, which leads to more people in prison.

No? Ummm, care to elaborate?

[hr]

saru mo ki kara ochiru

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[ascii]

Quoting novium from 13:35, 16th May 2007
Additionally, I also get the impression that it is easier to do well in the states. Certainly the cost of living isn't as high (despite comparable minimum wages)...neither are the taxes as high.

What's the minimum wage in the USA (a quick google search didn't find anything definitive)? £5.35 buys $10 at todays exchange rates - I didn't think it was that high in the USA.

Also, I'm not sure if there's a correlation between levels of taxation and social mobility.

[Steveo]

Quoting ascii from 14:48, 16th May 2007

Quoting novium from 13:35, 16th May 2007
Additionally, I also get the impression that it is easier to do well in the states. Certainly the cost of living isn't as high (despite comparable minimum wages)...neither are the taxes as high.

What's the minimum wage in the USA (a quick google search didn't find anything definitive)? £5.35 buys $10 at todays exchange rates - I didn't think it was that high in the USA.

Also, I'm not sure if there's a correlation between levels of taxation and social mobility.

Not a good camparison, as something that costs £5.35 here doesn't cost $10 in the States.

[hr]

Get off my internet.

[ascii]

Quoting Steveo from 14:52, 16th May 2007

Quoting ascii from 14:48, 16th May 2007

Quoting novium from 13:35, 16th May 2007
Additionally, I also get the impression that it is easier to do well in the states. Certainly the cost of living isn't as high (despite comparable minimum wages)...neither are the taxes as high.

What's the minimum wage in the USA (a quick google search didn't find anything definitive)? £5.35 buys $10 at todays exchange rates - I didn't think it was that high in the USA.

Also, I'm not sure if there's a correlation between levels of taxation and social mobility.

Not a good camparison, as something that costs £5.35 here doesn't cost $10 in the States.

If the minimum wage is lower in the states by a similar amount, then the cost of living is not "as high (despite comparable minimum wages)". I wasn't comparing anything anyway, just asking a question.

[novium]

As a rule of thumb, I find that at best, things here cost in pounds, numerically, what they would in dollars. For things like clothes, it's often twice as much numerically (i.e. 45 pounds versus 20 dollars) . Minimum wage varies at home, depending on what state your are in. Some states are much more expensive than other states as well. The kind of jobs high school students with no experience get in the summer pay about 8 dollars an hour where I grew up. Of the last year, the pound has risen against the dollar by 20 cents, which means of coruse that the minimum wages are not quite as directly comparable, but they are still close, and a dollar buys a lot more than a pound does.

Quoting Steveo from 14:52, 16th May 2007

Quoting ascii from 14:48, 16th May 2007

Quoting novium from 13:35, 16th May 2007
Additionally, I also get the impression that it is easier to do well in the states. Certainly the cost of living isn't as high (despite comparable minimum wages)...neither are the taxes as high.

What's the minimum wage in the USA (a quick google search didn't find anything definitive)? £5.35 buys $10 at todays exchange rates - I didn't think it was that high in the USA.

Also, I'm not sure if there's a correlation between levels of taxation and social mobility.

Not a good camparison, as something that costs £5.35 here doesn't cost $10 in the States.

[hr]

Get off my internet.

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[mhuzzell]

Quoting ascii from 14:48, 16th May 2007

What's the minimum wage in the USA (a quick google search didn't find anything definitive)? £5.35 buys $10 at todays exchange rates - I didn't think it was that high in the USA.

U.S. Minimum wage varies from state to state, but all states must have a minimum wage at least equal to the federal minimum wage, which for the last 10 years or so has been $5.15/hour--far, far below a living wage even in places with the lowest cost of living.

Fortunately, this year's newly-elected Democratic Congress has promised to raise the federal minimum wage incrimentally over the next few years, to something like $8/hr. No idea what it is currently.

Quoting Steveo from 14:52, 16th May 2007
Not a good camparison, as something that costs £5.35 here doesn't cost $10 in the States.

While it varies widely depending what sort of thing you're buying, I'd say in general (read: off-the-cuff estimation based on my own observations), something that costs £5.35 here costs between $6.50 and $8 in the US.

[hr]

I FOUND JESUS... he was behind the couch the whole time!

[mhuzzell]

Quoting novium from 15:52, 16th May 2007 The kind of jobs high school students with no experience get in the summer pay about 8 dollars an hour where I grew up.

Luxury! I used to dream of making $8 an hour... no, really. Minimum wage was still $5.15 in the state I worked in this past summer. I made $6.50 an hour at one job, and it was generally considered a 'pretty good' wage.

[hr]

I FOUND JESUS... he was behind the couch the whole time!

[novium]

OH, let's not get into a debate over minimum wages. Besides, don't most states have higher minimum wages than that?

In ancy case, remind me to never live where ever you've been in the states.
just a few price comparisons off the top of my head:
a brand new paperback book here costs 8 pounds, there costs 8 dollars.
Going out to lunch at home in california costs about 8 dollars (and it'll be pretty good food), here, about 8 pounds (sometimes for exceedingly mediocre food).
Anything electronic... the computer that costs 400 dollars at home will cost at least 400 pounds here, usually much more.
The same pair of cheap shoes from a factory in china costs 7 or 8 dollars at home, and 15 pounds here.
I can't even bear to look at monsoon, which quality wise probably is around Target and yet is more expensive than Nordies. (At least the latter has an excellent outlet store )
Hotels. The extremely basic economy motel I stayed in- at a discounted conference rate- cost me 60 pounds a night.

Produce and meats seem to cost quite a bit more, too.
It really hurts to be paying in dollars. Especially with the dollar's slide against the pound.

Quoting mhuzzell from 15:59, 16th May 2007

Quoting ascii from 14:48, 16th May 2007

What's the minimum wage in the USA (a quick google search didn't find anything definitive)? £5.35 buys $10 at todays exchange rates - I didn't think it was that high in the USA.

U.S. Minimum wage varies from state to state, but all states must have a minimum wage at least equal to the federal minimum wage, which for the last 10 years or so has been $5.15/hour--far, far below a living wage even in places with the lowest cost of living.

Fortunately, this year's newly-elected Democratic Congress has promised to raise the federal minimum wage incrimentally over the next few years, to something like $8/hr. No idea what it is currently.

Quoting Steveo from 14:52, 16th May 2007
Not a good camparison, as something that costs £5.35 here doesn't cost $10 in the States.

While it varies widely depending what sort of thing you're buying, I'd say in general (read: off-the-cuff estimation based on my own observations), something that costs £5.35 here costs between $6.50 and $8 in the US.

[hr]

I FOUND JESUS... he was behind the couch the whole time!

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[novium]

Well, where were you? I think the regular minimum wage (that is, not the legally mandated one) depends on the costs of living etc wherever you are. Minimum wage in california is....oh, 7 something last time I checked. 7.25? 7.50? But it seemed to me that most of the lowest paying jobs paid around 8 dollars anyway.

Quoting mhuzzell from 16:52, 16th May 2007

Quoting novium from 15:52, 16th May 2007 The kind of jobs high school students with no experience get in the summer pay about 8 dollars an hour where I grew up.

Luxury! I used to dream of making $8 an hour... no, really. Minimum wage was still $5.15 in the state I worked in this past summer. I made $6.50 an hour at one job, and it was generally considered a 'pretty good' wage.

[hr]

I FOUND JESUS... he was behind the couch the whole time!

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[Gubbins]

Is there a US version of the UK's Consumer Price Index or similar that's directly comparable between the two countries?

[hr]

...then again, that is only my opinion.