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Re:

Postby Aureliano on Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting harmless loony from 22:39, 10th Sep 2007
Except when you look at the map of where the restaurant was and in relation to the flat - it wasn't a few metres (like in the garden) - it wasn't even in viewing distance. At least if I am in my garden I can see the house (you'd need to have a freakishly big garden to be that far)....and anyhow I'd have the baby monitor on (portable one) so I can hear what's happening if I'm not that near to them.

I think the equivalent distance is leaving kids in Hope Street and swanning off to Tesco.


I have very little sympathy remaining for this case whatever the outcome. But when I first read about the geographical details of the night, and when people bring up the whole issue of neglect, I always think back to one of my most vivid childhood memories that I thought I'd share.

On a cheap family holiday to the Canary Islands back in the late 80s, I was left alone in our hotel room while my parents and my older sister went down to the hotel lounge/bar.
My memory is pretty fuzzy on the exact sequence of events, but I must have been between 5-10. I was really tired, and remember being given the choice to join them. I guess I was sort of put to bed, but naturally woke up later, alone in a hotel room, and got quite frightened. I think some random hotel guest in the corridor must have heard me crying, at which point my parents were alerted by hotel staff, and I was happily reunited with them for a late-night ice cream.

Geographically this was no different (I was several floors up, probably 5-10 minutes away from them, out of sight).
Do I think they were wrong to leave me? Hardly.
Was it a different time and a different atmosphere to the one we live in today? Perhaps.
As noted above, I just find it hard to believe that their actions and choices were any more neglectful than having chosen some bumbling babysitter.

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Re:

Postby creepy old man on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:10 am

I was a teenage babysitter and I took damn good care of those kids - although probably because I was so scared of what would happen if they were hurt under my watch.

I highly doubt that if there was a babysitter present the same thing would have happened. It would be hard for someone in a hotel room with the kids not to notice someone breaking into the room. The attacker might not have risked it had he seen an adult(ish) person in the room, and even if he had at least there would have been a witness/more evidence. And I'm sure two doctors who could afford to take the whole family on a trip to Portugal could have afforded a babysitter for a few hours.
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Re:

Postby exnihilo on Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:42 am

They didn't need one. The service was right there in the complex and they chose not to bother using it.
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Re:

Postby munchingfoo on Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:59 am

You do realise that Madeline was three years old and she was the OLDEST amongst them? Also - ditto the comment about the garden BBQ not being an accurate analogy.


Quoting Lyeta from 20:43, 10th Sep 2007
What is wrong with leaving your kids a few metres away while you have dinner? Would people think it was as big a problem if they were having, say, a BBQ in their (large) garden leaving the kids sleeping upstairs and doors unlocked? Probably not. Anyway, the typical teenage babysitter is probably far less attentive than the half hourly checks(EDIT: reportedly)done by the McCanns.


[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!
I'm not a large water-dwelling mammal Where did you get that preposterous hypothesis? Did Steve
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Re:

Postby flossy on Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:17 am

If you were parent of the 4 y.o., wouldn't you worry that one of the babies might start crying? The natural instinct of the 4 y.o. would be to pick the baby up which could lead to the baby being dropped and injured.

Plus if you were abducting a child to pass off as your own (as opposed to murder), you'd choose a baby - they look very different to their parents so there'd be less suspicion than taking a blonde child.

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Re:

Postby Lyeta on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:59 pm

I agree that they were very young but I guess I was just relating the story to my own upbringing. Where I grew up our house was left unlocked while we were went to the local shops, my mum let me walk home from school alone when I was 4, she would go next door to our neighbour's house and leave me at home sleeping etc etc. I don't consider myself "neglected" and never came to any harm and can't imagine I would have fared any better in care should my parents have been charged with neglect.
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Re:

Postby Das Feuer liebt mich on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:25 pm

1.The restauarant was hardly a few metres away! Like 'harmless loony' says it wasn't even within viewing distance!!

2.Maybe babysitters can be less attentive than parents checking on their kids every half hour but that's not the point! Madeline is 4 years old and the twins are two! Anything could have happened to them in the space of half hour. What if one of them fell and bumped their head? If a babysitter had been there at least something could have been done at the time. And, oh yes...Madeline wouldn't be missing.

3. How far away was your school from your house and how many main roads did you have to cross? Because I can tell you there is no way, NO WAY, I would ever let a four year old walk home themselves. That is just far too young an age. Maybe your not 'neglected' but why on earth would your parents allow you do that unless you were some super-brained, really mature 4 year old.


What I think people are forgetting in all this is that not only was it that two year twins and a four year old were left alone but also that this was in a foreign country. A place they don't know well and that really does begger belief.

Quoting Lyeta from 20:43, 10th Sep 2007
What is wrong with leaving your kids a few metres away while you have dinner? Would people think it was as big a problem if they were having, say, a BBQ in their (large) garden leaving the kids sleeping upstairs and doors unlocked? Probably not. Anyway, the typical teenage babysitter is probably far less attentive than the half hourly checks

I agree that they were very young but I guess I was just relating the story to my own upbringing. Where I grew up our house was left unlocked while we were went to the local shops, my mum let me walk home from school alone when I was 4, she would go next door to our neighbour's house and leave me at home sleeping etc etc. I don't consider myself "neglected" and never came to any harm and can't imagine I would have fared any better in care should my parents have been charged with neglect. (EDIT: reportedly)done by the McCanns.



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Also...

Postby Das Feuer liebt mich on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:29 pm

...all of the McCanns kids are IVF. Know I don't know if any of you know people that's had this treatment done but for some people it can take years for you to get pregnant.

If you had tried so long and hard for a child (especially Madeline as she was the first born) wouldn't you be even more protective over them?

just a thought..

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Re:

Postby rob 'f*ck off' wine boy on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:42 pm

Quoting Das Feuer liebt mich from 17:29, 11th Sep 2007
...all of the McCanns kids are IVF. Know I don't know if any of you know people that's had this treatment done but for some people it can take years for you to get pregnant.

If you had tried so long and hard for a child (especially Madeline as she was the first born) wouldn't you be even more protective over them?

just a thought..

[hr]

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind.


You just illustrated why we have professional investigative institutions, instead of letting any old todger with half a brain have a stab at solving the crime.

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Re:

Postby Das Feuer liebt mich on Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:39 pm

Quoting rob 'f*ck off' wine boy from 17:42, 11th Sep 2007
Quoting Das Feuer liebt mich from 17:29, 11th Sep 2007
...all of the McCanns kids are IVF. Know I don't know if any of you know people that's had this treatment done but for some people it can take years for you to get pregnant.

If you had tried so long and hard for a child (especially Madeline as she was the first born) wouldn't you be even more protective over them?

just a thought..

[hr]

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind.


You just illustrated why we have professional investigative institutions, instead of letting any old todger with half a brain have a stab at solving the crime.

Toodlepip!


Well, gee thanks! For the record I'm not trying to solve a crime. I'm just speculating like everyone else. I'm merely trying to state my disbelief at why two middle class GPs could leave children of such a young age alone whilst in a foreign country.

Once again, dear sinner, I apologise for having opinion!

[hr]

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Re:

Postby October on Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting rob 'f*ck off' wine boy from 17:42, 11th Sep 2007

You just illustrated why we have professional investigative institutions, instead of letting any old todger with half a brain have a stab at solving the crime.

Toodlepip!


You just illustrated why hardly any new people join the sinner.

Go you.

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Re:

Postby munchingfoo on Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting Das Feuer liebt mich

Well, gee thanks! For the record I'm not trying to solve a crime. I'm just speculating like everyone else. I'm merely trying to state my disbelief at why two middle class GPs could leave children of such a young age alone whilst in a foreign country.



What does being middle class have anything to do with anything related to this? Are the middle classes better than the working classes? Or worse? Or are the middle classes better than worse than the upper classes?

Nice generalisation, whichever definition you intended. A*

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!
I'm not a large water-dwelling mammal Where did you get that preposterous hypothesis? Did Steve
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Re:

Postby October on Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:01 pm

Quoting munchingfoo from 19:53, 11th Sep 2007

What does being middle class have anything to do with anything related to this?


so are you saying that if this was a working class family from an estate in london, it wouldn't of been treated any different?

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.
Does no-one feel that giving geeks a justification such as Article 31 a bad move? - Frank
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Re:

Postby fatboy on Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:05 pm

You just illustrated why hardly any new people join the sinner.

Go you.



Haha, maybe noone joins the sinner because its boring.
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Re:

Postby rob 'f*ck off' wine boy on Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:12 pm

Quoting October from 19:48, 11th Sep 2007
Quoting rob 'f*ck off' wine boy from 17:42, 11th Sep 2007

You just illustrated why we have professional investigative institutions, instead of letting any old todger with half a brain have a stab at solving the crime.

Toodlepip!


You just illustrated why hardly any new people join the sinner.

Go you.

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.


Orly? Did you take a survey?
Thought begets Heresy; Heresy begets retribution.
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Re:

Postby munchingfoo on Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting October from 20:01, 11th Sep 2007
Quoting munchingfoo from 19:53, 11th Sep 2007

What does being middle class have anything to do with anything related to this?


so are you saying that if this was a working class family from an estate in london, it wouldn't of been treated any different?

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.


Are you saying it should be treated any differently?

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!
I'm not a large water-dwelling mammal Where did you get that preposterous hypothesis? Did Steve
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Re:

Postby exnihilo on Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:42 am

Well this just plumbed the depths of pointlessness.
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Re:

Postby Haunted on Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:22 am

So they found hair now.
Whats good about that is that they can test whether the hair came from a living person or a dead one. Not much room to explain that one away if the tests come back 'dead'.

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Re:

Postby Das Feuer liebt mich on Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:34 pm

For goodness sake! Obviously I don't mean middle class people are better than working class. I come from a working class family and stay in a council house myself. So why would I make such a generalisation!!!

The reason I put that there is because if they weren't middle class (and were working class) and if they weren't GPS (didn't care to moan at me about that though, did you!!)then they would be be treated a lot differently. But for the very fact that they are middle class GPS everyone expects them to be good, honest people. If it had been working class parents that had left their kids alone, say a bald headed man who has a bit of a drinking problem and a black mother who is unemployed, then people would have completely different opinions and speculations about the whole thing.

Anything else you wish me to explain!!
Quoting munchingfoo from 19:53, 11th Sep 2007
Quoting Das Feuer liebt mich

Well, gee thanks! For the record I'm not trying to solve a crime. I'm just speculating like everyone else. I'm merely trying to state my disbelief at why two middle class GPs could leave children of such a young age alone whilst in a foreign country.



What does being middle class have anything to do with anything related to this? Are the middle classes better than the working classes? Or worse? Or are the middle classes better than worse than the upper classes?

Nice generalisation, whichever definition you intended. A*

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!


[hr]

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind.
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind.
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Re:

Postby munchingfoo on Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:00 pm

Sorry, I had written the response below when I realised that this simple phrase would suffice.

f it had been working class parents that had left their kids alone, say a bald headed man who has a bit of a drinking problem and a black mother who is unemployed
Nice view of the average working class person you have there.


[s]
You do make that generalisation, and you continue it through onto this last post. Not only that, but you presume that everyone else has this point of view too.

"everyone expects them to be good, honest people."

Adding further factors - such as "drinking problem" and "unemployed" makes your comparison useless, and I believe further proves your belief. If you honestly believe that everyone expects all middle class people to be "good [and] honest" (in comparison to the other classes, otherwise why mention it - my point) AND you think that you don't feel working class people are not so "good [and] honest" then there is a problem of logic here.

I didn't mention the GP fact because I would expect GPs to look after children better than people from most other professions, since being able to look after and care for people is an integral part of their job.
[/s]

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!
I'm not a large water-dwelling mammal Where did you get that preposterous hypothesis? Did Steve
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